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Searching the web for under $1000/month

quickwit.io

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Re: Searching the web for under $1000/month

#71
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because you don't understand the value proposition of something doesn't make it a scam.

AWS is a scam not because it can’t save you money, but because they actively try to trick you into spending more money. That’s practically the definition of a scam. Go to the AWS console and try to answer even simply things like how much did the last hour/day/week cost me? Or how about some notifications if that new service you just added is going to cost vastly more than you where expecting. I know of a few people g…

Disclosure: Work at AWS.

I've never seen AWS actively try to trick people into spending more money. I've seen Premium Support, product service teams, solutions architects, and account managers all suggest not to use AWS services if it doesn't fit the customer usecase. I've personally recommended non-AWS options for customers who are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Can the billing console be better? Yes. But AWS isn't trying to trick anyone into anything. The console, while it has its troubles, doesn't have dark patterns and pricing is transparent. You pay for what you use, and prices have never decreased.

Hell, I know of a specific service that was priced poorly (meaning it wasn't profitable for AWS). Instead of raising prices, AWS ate its hat while rewriting the entire service from scratch to give it better offerings and make it cheaper (both for AWS and customers).

Re: Searching the web for under $1000/month

#72
post #48

If you're going for low cost, you could do better: https://www.hetzner.com/dedicated-rootserver/dell/dx181/conf... Basic configuration in Finland 1 224,91 € 1.92 TB SATA SSD Datacenter Edition 4 95,20 € 320,11 € 320 Euro equals 385.90 United States Dollar

I am really starting to feel that co-location will make a big comeback. It seems cloud costs are just becoming too high for the convenience they once offered. For small projects and scale probably makes a ton of sense, but at some point the costs to scale aren't worth the up front developer cost savings.

Where they get you is that it very rarely makes financial sense to do both cloud and colo/on-prem (unless you're a massive company). It ends up being way more expensive to use the cloud, but also hire engineers to work on making an on-prem cloud. Most companies have a mixed bag of projects that are either better served by the cloud, or are okay with colo and the savings it can bring.

Assuming you don't want to do a hybrid approach, then you either push everyone onto the cloud and accept paying more, or you push everyone into colo and force the small and scaling out projects to deal with stuff like having to order hardware 3 months in advance.

Then, depending on how nice you want it to be to interact with your infrastructure, you can end up paying a lot to have people build abstractions over it. Do you want developers to be able to create their own database from a merge request or API call? If so, now you're going to have to hire someone with a 6 figure salary to figure out how to do that. It's easy to forget how many things are involved in that. You're going to have a lot of databases, so you need a system to track them. A lot of these databases are presumably not big enough to warrant a full physical server, so you have to sort out multi-tenancy. If you have multi-tenancy, you need a way to handle RBAC so one user can't bork all the databases on the host. You will also need some way to handle what happens when one user is throwing so much load at the RDBMS it's impacting other apps on that database. To accomplish that, you're going to need a way to gather metrics that are sharded per-database and a way to monitor those (which is admittedly one of the easier bits). You also generally just straight up lose a lot of the scaling features. I don't have a way to just give you more IOPS to your database on-prem. The best I can do is add more disks, but your database will be down for a long time if I have to put a disk in, expand the RAID, let it redistribute data and then power it back up. That's several hours of downtime for you, along with anyone who's on the same database. Of course, we can do replicas, and swap the master, but everyone will have to reconfigure their apps or we need something like Consul to handle that (which means more engineers to manage that stuff).

You're also probably going to need more than one of those expensive infra people, because they presumably need an on-call rotation, and no one is going to agree to be on-call the time. And every time someone quits, you have to train the new person, which is several months of salary basically wasted.

That's not to say that you don't need infra people on AWS, but you a) need a lot less of them, because they only need to manage the systems AWS has, not build them, and b) you can hire cheaper ops people, again because you don't need people that are capable of building those kinds of systems.

Once you factor in all of that stuff, AWS' prices start looking more reasonable. They're still a little higher, but they're not double the price. If anything more than a tiny, tiny subset of the AWS features are appealing, it's going to cost you almost as much to build your own as it does to just pay Amazon/Google/Microsoft/whoever.

Also, a massive thing people overlook is that AWS is fairly well documented. I can Google exactly how to set up permissions on an S3 bucket, or how to use an S3 bucket as a website. It only takes seconds, the cognitive burden is low, and the low-friction doesn't cause anyone stress. In-house systems tend to be poorly documented, and doing anything slightly outside the norm becomes a "set up a meeting with the infra team" kind of thing. It takes forever, but more importantly, it takes a lot of thought and it's frustrating.

Re: Searching the web for under $1000/month

#75
post #66
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"S3 costs include battle tested, multi-DC replication." Sometimes we pay a bit too much for this multi-replication, battle tested stuff. It's not like the probability of loosing data is THAT huge. For the 4x extra cost you could easily take a backup every 24h. "It means that we can host 100 different indices on S3, and use the same pool of search server to deal with the CPU-bound stuff" You can do that with NFS. It's…

> For the 4x extra cost you could easily take a backup every 24h. It's also worth considering the cost to simply regenerate the data for something like this that isn't the source of truth. You'll lose any content that you indexed that has disappeared from the web, but that seems like a feature more than a bug. > You can do that with NFS. You're going to be bound by your NIC speed. You can bond them together, but the…

100Gbps NICs are cheap, relative to the price of the cloud...

Re: Searching the web for under $1000/month

#77

It is a cool project. S3 can be cost efficient, but only if you don't touch data :) Their price calculation doesn't mention cost of S3 requests, which very quickly adds up and is often neglected. It costs $1 for 2.5M GET requests to S3. They have 180 shards, in a general case query seems to fetch all of them. Presumably they don't download full shard per request, but download an index + some relevant ranges. Lets say…

For Digital Ocean object storage, data transfer to/from a Digital Ocean VM is free. You only pay for bytes-at-rest.

But it seems S3 doesn't have a similar offering. Data transfer is free between S3 and EC2 instances, but you still pay the per-request charge.

I wonder can you factor this into the pricing algorithm.

Re: Searching the web for under $1000/month

#78
post #56
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course not. But that's why the "cloud" (as in the typical DO/AWS/Azure/GCP offerings) are a scam.

Huge fan of Hetzner, but dedicated servers do not invalidate the value proposition of the cloud. Ordering a server at Hetzner can take anywhere between a few minutes and a few days. Each server has a fixed setup cost of around the monthly rent. They only have two datacenters in Europe. They don't have any auxillary services (databases, queues, scalable object storage, etc.). They are unbeatable for certain use-cases,…

> They only have two datacenters in Europe

Nonsense, Hetzner operates like 25 datacenters.

Re: Searching the web for under $1000/month

#79
Nice! Maybe at one point you can release a general web search engine for the Common Crawl corpus? It seems even simpler than this proof of concept, but potentially more useful for people looking for a true full text web search.

There isn't an easy way today to explore or search what is contained in the Common Crawl index.

Re: Searching the web for under $1000/month

#80

It is a cool project. S3 can be cost efficient, but only if you don't touch data :) Their price calculation doesn't mention cost of S3 requests, which very quickly adds up and is often neglected. It costs $1 for 2.5M GET requests to S3. They have 180 shards, in a general case query seems to fetch all of them. Presumably they don't download full shard per request, but download an index + some relevant ranges. Lets say…

For Digital Ocean object storage, data transfer to/from a Digital Ocean VM is free. You only pay for bytes-at-rest. But it seems S3 doesn't have a similar offering. Data transfer is free between S3 and EC2 instances, but you still pay the per-request charge. I wonder can you factor this into the pricing algorithm.

Obvious optimization would be to cache chunks locally on every worker nodes.
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