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Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

391–400 of 510 posts

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#391
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this supposed to excuse the consequences of the past? What is your point exactly? Even much of global human trafficking leads back to forced labor, exploited by major western corporations through obfuscated supply chains.

In that case, I certainly hope you don’t own an iPhone, don’t buy things on Amazon and only shop local where you check all the labels for “Made in MY country”. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that there isn’t any moral high ground here.

I am not perfect, no one is, but it is worse to blindly accept or ignore these problems. It's not about trying to take a moral high ground, it's the acknowledgement of reality. Does an iPhone need/absolutely require slavery or child labor? Does anything?

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider for a moment that you are both right. That there are in fact heritable biological differences that can aggregate to average group-wide differences like the parent comment implied, and that assuming that this is the case is harmful for the individual and society, like you argued. If that's the case, the parent comment, while embarrassing for this site, has a valid claim - that at some point blaming everything…

What if skull shape determines a person's personality? It would be best if your hypothetical scenario was something with more than a shred of long discredited science behind it.

Are you aware of a discussion of the best scientific research and arguments on either side? my understanding is the same as yours but I’d like to become more educated on the topic

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#393

Zizek has talked a lot about victimhood and makes, imo, some great points. One point he makes is that people today assign virtue to victimhood, which doesn't really correlate because victims can turn out to be assholes themselves. I agree with this point and think it's a major reason why it's trendy to be a victim. If victims get all the attention and support these days just for being a victim of something, why not j…

> which doesn't really correlate because victims can turn out to be assholes themselves. And, in particular, victimhood is often contextual and temporal. The oppressed person today may turn around and oppress someone else tomorrow. (And, in fact, fewer things predict likelihood of abusing more than a history of being abused.) If our culture's moral system is based on partitioning the graph of interactions into "victi…

It is an ironic paradox that:

    Attempts at destroying binary labels in one dimension create new binaries in adjacent dimensions.
Basically maximizing labels (identities) creates an inherent conflict amongst identities because it further removes them from a unified label or identity group. As people more tightly identify with the group that highlights their _differences_ from other groups instead of their _similarities_ then society wide fracturing will occur.

This fracture will further drive unrest in the parent society. To make matters worse, if discussion of this potentially negative outcome of progress is seen as taboo then the cultural "brakes" that can be used to positively integrate the changes into the future society will be cut.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#394
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Walter, please don't say these things. I get what you're trying to communicate but there is such thing as a victim. You can be doing everything right and still have harm brought to you and your loved ones by circumstances beyond your control. People who lost their families in 9/11 or Hurricane Katrina didn't end up that way because they didn't have a plan or weren't busy.

This isn't how I read OP's post. The OP isn't talking about a catastrophic or life-altering event which makes one a victim. Rather, being faced with difficult circumstances and life choices which can be altered and addressed with effort and plain hard work instead of blaming others and falling into victimhood.

What the debate actually is about is whether it is possible to be subject to sexism or racism, whether those can influence outcomes and whether it is valid to talk about those. The problem is that if you state it like that, people will argue whether sexism and racism exist. So, op and the rest of HN go for the next best thing: trying to categorically deny that is is possible to be harmed by actions of others.

Note how there are no complains about harm of victimhood when single guys complain about being single and blame society for it.

The real topic here is that there should not be such a thing as activism. It should be shameful to talk openly talking about disadvantages or -isms. Instead, you should pretend none of that exists, so that everybody feels good about society being fair. It makes you feel safe and in control too. Bad things happen to people who deserve it.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#395

I always considered the current culture of cultivated-victimhood to be rooted in the manner Western people fundamentally define themselves by their triumphs against adversity. In the absence of real adversity, people seek and create surrogate adversity for themselves to triumph over. From this process they can rationalise themselves as having the inner-strength to overcome such barriers.

This is similar to my belief as to why modern American politics is the way it is. It's so much left vs right, red vs blue, etc.

During the cold war, we had a common enemy in communism. Sure there were disagreements, arguments, fights, but at the end of the day, most everyone could agree that we had to stand up for America.

Now those common enemies aren't such a threat, so we look across the aisle for our enemy.

It used to be "we just have different visions for America but we all want to succeed" and now it's "OMG you are trampling my right to ___________ you Nazi!".

Your comment says all this much better than I ever could, though.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#396
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case, I certainly hope you don’t own an iPhone, don’t buy things on Amazon and only shop local where you check all the labels for “Made in MY country”. I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that there isn’t any moral high ground here.

I am not perfect, no one is, but it is worse to blindly accept or ignore these problems. It's not about trying to take a moral high ground, it's the acknowledgement of reality. Does an iPhone need/absolutely require slavery or child labor? Does anything?

100% agree. And I apologize for insinuating that you were trying to grab the high ground. That was probably a cheap shot.

The larger point is that it's easy to judge the past and make sweeping condemnations. I see that in wanting to condemn the West due to it's past. But surely people will condemn us as well for things we know are wrong, but we do anyway. At least I keep doing them. I like my iPhone. I like cheap electronics. I like affordable clothing. And behind all of that is some pretty egregious stuff. Where does that leave me in history?

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#397
post #30

> So victimhood is a learned behavior after a certain age. As a brown guy with kids in the school system, that's why recent trends in education alarm me. I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. It's dangerous experimentation with kids' psychology. Growing up as one…

I value what you've written, and I agree although my experience was (possibly?) the inverse. I was a poor white kid in a wealthy white area. While I lived in that area, I only got to briefly attend a private school because of my mothers boyfriend. Everyone knew I was the "poor kid", and my mother, who did her best, was _obsessed_ with the fact that everyone knew we were "imposters" - not wealthy, not married, from a…

> kids who grew up in wealth and surrounded by healthy parents seem oblivious or to not care whatsoever about such judgements from others

I can assure you it is the healthy parents and not the wealth that create children confident enough to ignore the judgments of others. The wealthy are far more susceptible to social judgments when they lack confidence themselves.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That treatment by the way, is extremely problematic. White people are empowered to amplify people like Ilhan Omar, who are extremely unrepresentative of their group, but are discouraged from amplifying people like my dad, a Biden voting Bangladeshi immigrant who hates being called a “hyphenated American” and wants to live in a “colorblind” society.

It’s gross to choose Ilhan Omar here as your throwaway example. Omar gets dumped on all day every day by a parade of disingenuous GOP-partisan bullies who are essentially indifferent to her words and actions, but feel profoundly threatened by the mere presence of a young, African, Muslim, refugee woman in a position of power. Though she grew up in a really tough situation and has worked hard to overcome it, she does…

I’m not dumping on Ilhan Omar. I’m dumping on the mostly white people in the media who have made her, in my dad’s words, “the face of American Muslims.” She has views that are far outside the mainstream for American Muslims, particularly with respect to social issues and activism. She’s welcome to have whatever politics she wants—it’s America! But it’s wrong for the media to amplify her as if she is representative of Muslims in America as a whole.

This is a problem with progressives, which have disproportionate power in the media, and academia. As a group (for example Elizabeth Warren supporters) they’re as disproportionately white as the Republican Party. But they trade on the moral authority of purporting to speak for people of color. To that end, they amplify voices like Omar and Tlaib, whose politics are indistinguishable from those of secular white progressives, and not representative of Muslims. There are probably more Muslims who voted for Trump (about 1/3) then ones who are as extreme in their politics as Omar and Tlaib. This pisses odd people like my parents, who are typical Muslim voters (moderate socially conservative Democrats).

It’s particularly problematic when, as the OP points out, whites people are judged differently for amplifying the voices of someone like Omar or Tlaib versus the voice of one of the many Muslims who voted for Trump. It suppresses conservatism within the community—progressive Muslims can count on getting tenure, getting in CNN, because white people are allowed to agree with and amplify them. But when conservative Muslims speak, white people are afraid to agree, and progressive whites often feel comfortable attacking them as tokens. This happens to other people of color as well—in the dozens of Asians you saw on CNN talking about the Atlanta shootings, how many were Trump voters (like 1/3 of Asians?)

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#399
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not perfect, no one is, but it is worse to blindly accept or ignore these problems. It's not about trying to take a moral high ground, it's the acknowledgement of reality. Does an iPhone need/absolutely require slavery or child labor? Does anything?

100% agree. And I apologize for insinuating that you were trying to grab the high ground. That was probably a cheap shot. The larger point is that it's easy to judge the past and make sweeping condemnations. I see that in wanting to condemn the West due to it's past. But surely people will condemn us as well for things we know are wrong, but we do anyway. At least I keep doing them. I like my iPhone. I like cheap ele…

Let them condemn us, they will likely be absolutely right. Not condemning actions of now or of the past, because we don't want to also be judged for our actions/inaction is basically averting your eyes to try to escape your own responsibility.

You would probably fit in as "feckless cog" within consumerist capitalist machine, a machine that rarely really care about human rights. Relying on the individual consumer to police giant national/multi-national corporations is an unfair and unrealistic burden. Conditioning consumers to believe that iPhones, cheap electronics and cheap clothing require exploitative practices is another shady tactic to maintain an inequitable/unfair wealth/class structure. The $1200 smartphone is built next to the $200 smartphone, the $50 shirt is sewn next to the $5 shirt, chip manufacturing is highly automated, and if cutthroat pricing wasn't "required" and there was teeth behind anti-exploitative regulations, companies might care about auditing their supply chains.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#400
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously we’re speaking in generalities, but sometimes people reclaim that power vía speaking up about victimhood.

Generally speaking, demanding to be recognized as a victim doesn't do much to prevent or end victimhood, and in many cases, actually hurts. I've seen far more people's lives ruined trapped in a victim mentality than I've seen ruined by saying "I refuse to see myself as a victim any longer. I have the power to do something about my situation." Many people were a victim of an incident or circumstances beyond their cont…

We might be getting a little stuck on the word 'victim'. My main point is that people speaking up about being hurt can be a way for them to find resolution around it. Sometimes other people don't like them speaking up, but personally I wouldn't think of it as my place to judge.

>But who benefits by continuing to define those people by the things that they were a victim of?

I think ideally it's up to the person themselves to decide when they no longer need that definition.

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