Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018) • Hacker News Board

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#651

Post by shlant » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:07 PM UTC

dev_tty01 wrote: post #381

atweiden wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel you. I stopped eating meat for 40 years for the same reason. But... they are on the same food chain we are, and they’d eat us in a heartbeat, right? Herbivorous ruminants like cows would never eat you, and would generally never harm you unless provoked. Breeding intelligent lifeforms in a bespoke way to murder them for cash — whatever the reason or creature involved — is diabolically evil. If you do this for…

I absolutely respect your choices and your opinion, but I don't understand them. Is the wolf diabolically evil? No cash involved of course. Is that the issue? What if I hunt the animal and kill it and then consume it, like the lion, the tiger, the hawk, and the dolphin? Is the hunter morally superior to the farmer who raises a steer, providing clean water, well grassed pasture, and then kills in a humane manner for p…

animals do not have a concept of good and evil so why would we apply it to them?

I think looking at how things in the animal kingdom work and using that as a justification for our actions is a very low bar. We have the cognitive and emotional ability to understand that things like murder/rape/etc. are wrong do we not? If you just take a small step from that and recognize the sentience of animals, it doesn't seem too unreasonable to afford them the same respect.

PS: I think the idea of good/evil is pretty reductionist to begin with, but I understand it's a common way of looking at things

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#652

Post by roenxi » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:08 PM UTC

dotsam wrote: post #563

roenxi wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The compromise position then would be to breed them so they didn't suffer. It'd probably be good for the meat quality too. The idea there is a moral issue here is suspect. It is obvious I, personally, don't want to be factory farmed. It isn't obvious that factory farming is a moral problem. It is all moot anyway, vat-grown meat is going to be more hygienic, cheaper and all-round better once they work out the kinks. B…

I hope cellular agriculture will help reduce real meat consumption, and decrease overall suffering. Breeding out the ability to suffer is also desirable. Do you not think that factory farming causes suffering? Causing avoidable suffering seems like a moral issue to me.

I, personally, do not care if factory farming causes suffering and support cheap, nutritious and convenient food by whatever means is necessary. The people who want to ban it are insensitive threats to human comfort IMHO.

But if it is a problem that needs to be solved, breeding the animals to enjoy it is a much easier solution than synthetic meat. We've had the technology to change animal behaviour through breeding for longer than we've had history. If people want them to get a kick out of being caged and slaughtered then that is doable. easier and would have been faster to accomplish than growing meat in a jar, anyway. I think it is a waste of time, but it is better than laws restricting food production.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#653

Post by hhjinks » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:10 PM UTC

cubesmarching wrote: post #598

dalmo3 wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for being rude. No, my [non-]argument wasn't in good faith - it was in response to a parody comment, after all. But you seem serious this time. The problem with that line of reasoning is: sure, you can (quite literally) weigh the pros and cons of veganism like you did. But why stop there? To sustain a kilo of human flesh you still need several thousands of kilos of plant matter. The ultra-utilitarian solution s…

Given that plants aren't conscious and do not feel pain, any line of reasoning that is predicated on the assumption that plants are conscious and feel pain is irrelevant.

Your argument is just antinatalism, but for farm animals. Every animal will suffer in its life. Eradicating an entire population to reduce suffering is pretty extreme. Other arguments for veganism, like the environmental one, are much more palatable.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#654

Post by shlant » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:13 PM UTC

kiawe_fire wrote: post #623

sweetheart wrote: post #36

While it is not my experience at all, I understand that some folks have certain negative opinions of Beyond Burgers, and other fake meat/imitation burgers: - The texture is off - Maybe they cook strangely - Potentially less taste But the most important thing about them, and the reason I urge everyone to at least _try_ Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals. This is not an argument that fairs well…

I ended up becoming vegetarian for a while due to some video that was released years ago of factory farm workers abusing animals. I found myself unable to eat meat without bursting into tears. In time, and in part due to how complicated this ecosystem actually is (as explained by a few other replies here) I ended up settling on eating vegetarian “most of the time” and buying meat sourced from ethical places with bett…

I think a lot of people have that reaction to something like veganism for a couple reasons:

1. You are a constant reminder of their choices, the impact of their choices and their ability to make different ones

2. Eating food is a very base level need and the idea of moralizing that can elicit strong responses

3. I do think some people are genuinely afraid that vegans will prevent them from eating what they love (similar to democrats taking away guns or something)

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#655

Post by tpm » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #573

tpm wrote: post #541

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if it would be possible for the farmed animal to really have a fulfilling life (which I don't think is possible in the current, industrialized world), there are still humans who are caring for the animals, there are humans who are killing and dissecting them, and they too are affected by the inhumane process, and I think our empathy should extend to them too.

> which I don't think is possible in the current, industrialized world This is a concern I share. > there are still humans who are caring for the animals, there are humans who are killing and dissecting them, and they too are affected by the inhumane process, and I think our empathy should extend to them too. As far as I know, farmers don't suffer any kind of psychological damage from caring for and slaughtering anim…

This is a good read. Not very emotional, but good description of one of the jobs. One interesting bit: "the vast majority of farmers don’t do it. They might be rearing the livestock for meat and understand that the animals’ ultimate destination is an abattoir, but that doesn’t mean they like killing.... It’s the same as with an old dog: they could do it themselves, but they can’t."

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/apr/13/the-knac...

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#656

Post by efiecho » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

dqv wrote: post #205

wyager wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you figure it would cause the death of more total animals Cattle grazing causes less animal death than industrial plant agriculture (land clearing, pest control, insecticide usage, etc.). > People get along just fine eating only legumes and grain No they don't. Healthy vegans are few and far between. Not that the SAD is much (or any) better.

>Cattle grazing causes less animal death than industrial plant agriculture (land clearing, pest control, insecticide usage, etc.). Even grass fed beef are fed fodder which is the result of industrial plant agriculture. >No they don't. Healthy vegans are few and far between. Yes they do. Healthy vegans are way more common than you think. There is nothing unique about meat that can't be obtained from plant-based foods.

> Yes they do. Healthy vegans are way more common than you think. There is nothing unique about meat that can't be obtained from plant-based foods.

You can easily check if a vegan is actually following a vegan diet without cheating, because after a few years they will develop the sunken eyes and hollow collarbones, definitely not looking healthy.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#657

Post by moviequotes » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

I believe in humane and sustainable treatment of animals and I do question what it would be like if everyone went vegetarian, wouldn’t that render all those animals useless so it would reduce their propagation and life? Billions of animals would have little to no use to humans-therefore they would not be farmed or bred, there would be no life for them... it doesn’t make sense, to the point it’s almost absurd to analyze.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#658

Post by marliechiller » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

kenneth wrote: post #458

atweiden wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel you. I stopped eating meat for 40 years for the same reason. But... they are on the same food chain we are, and they’d eat us in a heartbeat, right? Herbivorous ruminants like cows would never eat you, and would generally never harm you unless provoked. Breeding intelligent lifeforms in a bespoke way to murder them for cash — whatever the reason or creature involved — is diabolically evil. If you do this for…

This comment is a fantastic example demonstrating why everyone hates vegans[1]. I'm all for everyone being more aware of where and how their food is made. If you come out of it choosing not to consume certain categories, that's fantastic. But the moment you start demonizing others for not making the same choices as you, you become an anti-social and dislikable person, and one that's not conducive to building a better…

serious question to consider it from the other side: if a/the holocaust was occurring in your country and people turned a blind eye to it, would you softly ask those propping it up to discontinue or would you be more empassioned about it? This is the view that some vegans have with respect to the current treatment of animals. Whether you choose to acknowledge it that way or not, I can completely understand why some people adopt "bullying" tactics, conciously or not, especially when some people palm them off as "hippies" or the like

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#659

Post by tsimionescu » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

uxcolumbo wrote: post #601

tsimionescu wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but also slaughter them, which is inhumane This is the very thing I completely disagree with. All living things die, and almost all animals die by being killed by other animals. Why is it "inhumane" when this killing is done by a human with a sharp knife or electrocution, but it is "humane" when done by a wolf tearing at their throat, or by insects eating them alive? And euthanasia of people is controversial for ma…

The lion needs to kill to survive. We in the modern world don't need to kill anymore to survive. We have the choice, so why choose to kill an animal just for culinary pleasures?

So your proposed alternative is we keep raising these animals, but euthanize them when they get to some age / fall sick?

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#660

Post by Traster » Fri, May 07, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

ipaddr wrote: post #170

I'm generally surprised no one brings up the negative health benefits of processed foods. It is not healthier to get rid of meat only to replace it with high salt chemically processed food that tastes like meat. It seems like we are going backwards. You know what uses less greenhouse emissions, less water and less land? The orginal plant based food that gets processed into a beyond burger. If you really care about th…

I think this is a counterproductive view. Gas turbines are bad for greenhouse gas emissions, but the fact is that gas turbines have displaced coal generators in many places in the US reducing net emissions.

Are gas turbines a part of a zero emissions electricity grid? No of course not. But are they an improvment on what's happening today? In some cases yes.

Ultimately you're right, eating locally grown plant based diets would be better for an individual, but you're also wrong because the beyond burger is a hell of a lot better than the food it's replacing in most cases.