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California is not in drought

latimes.com

161–170 of 216 posts

Re: California is not in drought

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is not enough snowpack. It's currently well below the seasonal average for the last 15 years [1], the average for that period is lower than the historical average was when California water policy was first established, and 2014 was the driest period California had experienced for the last 1200 years [2]. Only 2017 and 2019 provided some relief since then. Current models predict a warmer and wetter Californi…

I hope we start rolling out desalination at scale before things get dire. As far as powering that goes, we'd either have to start deploying as much renewable energy generation as physically possible or get over our collective fear of building more nuclear power plants. Or both. One of those self contained, passively safe tanker truck sized 100 MWe reactors that last 30 years that LLNL has proposed a few times sounds…

California has a number of desalination plants online already, including the large billion-dollar Carlsbad project, and several more plants in various stages of planning or construction.

I'm skeptical that desalination will be enough to prevent a reckoning over water in the near future though. It eases the strain on parched coastal communities, but it's pretty hard to move a lot of water very far inland. It's also expensive, in both up-front and ongoing costs, and the predicted intermittent wet years are going to make the economics of desalination tricky. And then there's the environmental impact; it's a good bet that 40 years from now, the state will be even drier than it is now, and 40 years of brine dumped up and down the coastline may have more severe consequences than we are anticipating. (To their credit, the Carlsbad project has made a large effort to remediate this with the construction of 60 acres of wetlands.)

For perspective, the Carlsbad plant is the largest in the western hemisphere and it produces enough water for 400,000 residents in one county. It is, aptly, a drop in the bucket.

Re: California is not in drought

#162
post #59
post #53

The pricing for water in California is highly asymmetric, with urban users paying significantly more (one to two orders of magnitude more) for water than agricultural users. If agricultural users are charged a higher rate (or equivalently the state cuts back on their subsidies ) and "free' rights to water are regulated and distributed more evenly across the population then wasteful use of water will immediately becom…

Agricultural water and municipal drinkable water are two different things. The farm water does not come from the same distribution system as city water. For example, pulling water straight from a river to irrigate farm is agricultural water. Maybe the cost of agricultural water is too low, it probably is at least in some places. However, it is not clear at all that agricultural uses even compete with urban uses. Urba…

> The farm water does not come from the same distribution system as city water.

Yes, it does, ultimately, in very large part. It may not traverse all of the same infrastructure, but it comes from the same sources, which have limited capacity. (And, in California, quite a lot of both urban and agricultural water is delivered by either the California State Water Project or the federal Central Valley Project, and an additional fraction of both urban and agricultural water is from sources downstream from the diversions for those water projects, and thus competes directly with them.)

> However, it is not clear at all that agricultural uses even compete with urban uses.

Yes, its quite clear that they do compete quite directly in California.

> People tend to think about water distribution similarly to electricity, which is completely wrong. With electricity, there is one all-encompassing grid that everyone uses, and if some people use more of it

In California, water is very much like that. Even the sources that seem separate (“I have my own well”) tap into sources (aquifers in the case of wells) shared with, and thus competing with, other uses.

> it is as if there were thousands of independent grids that cannot be easily connected

It’s really not like that all in California, especially outside of certain parts of rural Northern California: the vast majority of both the urban and agricultural parts of the rest of the state are dependent on the two big water projects and/or Colorado River water.

Re: California is not in drought

#163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe I read once that it takes about 920 gallons of water to make 1 gallon of almond milk. edit: i am apparently worse than an almond milk drinker, since coffee uses even more water at 1,056:1. and learning even more, cow-milk is about 2000 gallons of water to make a gallon of milk! so i really have no idea about any of this and its all surprising https://shamelesshousewife.wordpress.com/tag/how-much-water-...

Sure, but water isn't scarce everywhere, so optimization for water cost is not like carbon footprint where it all gets blown into the atmosphere and is bad. Many regions don't need to worry about water at all so it's basically free.

Diverting high quality agricultural soil is even more expensive than diverting water, though.

Irrigating California deserts and semi-arid regions for agriculture isn’t just some kind of random vanity project.

Re: California is not in drought

#164

> But we legislated and plumbed this state for a different climate pattern, when annual winter rains reliably fell on Sonoma and points north, and a full Sierra snowpack reliably melted through the spring and summer to feed streams and irrigate orchards and farm fields. That era is long gone. The snowpack comes unpredictably, because a warmer climate means water that formerly stayed in the mountains as snow through t…

> rainfall is the same

But it isn't. 20 to 10 years ago every winter in norcal was heavy rains for a few months.

That's happening less and less, many winters are now almost entirely dry (like current one).

Re: California is not in drought

#165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

California isn't big on dietary staple agricultural goods. The five biggest ag businesses are dairy, grapes, almonds, cattle, pistachios, and strawberries, none of which we really need to grow here. They're luxury foods generally. There's not that much that's grown here that couldn't be grown elsewhere.

The California central valley is probably the best climate on Earth for growing almonds and that is why about 70% of the world almond production happens there. If we don't really need to grow them here, then one does not really need almonds at all. But what singular food item does the world really need?

Rice

Re: California is not in drought

#166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you plan to power desal plants? LADWP is still importing coal fueled electricity from Utah. Not to mention all of the petroleum and natural gas plants scattered around California. Before we have desalination, we need more renewable energy.

We could start by not shutting down our the last nuclear power plant in California in 2025 that currently provides 10% of the states electricity.

[deleted]

Re: California is not in drought

#167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you plan to power desal plants? LADWP is still importing coal fueled electricity from Utah. Not to mention all of the petroleum and natural gas plants scattered around California. Before we have desalination, we need more renewable energy.

We could start by not shutting down our the last nuclear power plant in California in 2025 that currently provides 10% of the states electricity.

Sure. But even with that plant we depend on fossil fuels. So it is clearly not a complete option.

Re: California is not in drought

#168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is not enough snowpack. It's currently well below the seasonal average for the last 15 years [1], the average for that period is lower than the historical average was when California water policy was first established, and 2014 was the driest period California had experienced for the last 1200 years [2]. Only 2017 and 2019 provided some relief since then. Current models predict a warmer and wetter Californi…

I hope we start rolling out desalination at scale before things get dire. As far as powering that goes, we'd either have to start deploying as much renewable energy generation as physically possible or get over our collective fear of building more nuclear power plants. Or both. One of those self contained, passively safe tanker truck sized 100 MWe reactors that last 30 years that LLNL has proposed a few times sounds…

Sun already does desalination at the scale. Just create shadows over mountains to collect all this water at winter.

Re: California is not in drought

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, there is not enough snowpack. It's currently well below the seasonal average for the last 15 years [1], the average for that period is lower than the historical average was when California water policy was first established, and 2014 was the driest period California had experienced for the last 1200 years [2]. Only 2017 and 2019 provided some relief since then. Current models predict a warmer and wetter Californi…

I hope we start rolling out desalination at scale before things get dire. As far as powering that goes, we'd either have to start deploying as much renewable energy generation as physically possible or get over our collective fear of building more nuclear power plants. Or both. One of those self contained, passively safe tanker truck sized 100 MWe reactors that last 30 years that LLNL has proposed a few times sounds…

> I hope we start rolling out desalination at scale before things get dire.

Desalination is easy for household water but probably not practical for farming.

But running out of household water is almost entirely a political and allocation problem to begin with.

So while desalination is one way to prevent dire situations, there's no reason to even have dire situations.

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