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Why People Feel Like Victims

nautil.us

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Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#201

Post by breakyerself »

exporectomy wrote: post #122
ne0flex wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue there's a lot more nuances to system racism than the general narrative that is currently being perpettuated. Looking into those nuances would be frowned upon because certain groups differ from other groups for reasons that are not truly understood but would cause us to ask questions we're not comfortable with. Though anecdotal, I know several adults who have fallen into the "it's because systemic racism tha…

I think American culture has potentially gone down an ever-worsening path that comes from assuming blacks and whites are inherently identical. That leads to the belief that the persistent differences in life outcomes must be caused by oppression. That means there's an oppressor who is evil and deserves punishment. What if the fundamental assumption isn't true? How long do you keep punishing the oppressor for? Not to…

Yeah saying systemic racism is to whites as nazism is to Jews is pretty damned godwinny

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#202

Post by [deleted] »

breakyerself wrote: post #94
slowmovintarget wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mere act of caring about your children's schooling, and taking measures to ensure its quality is a far more solid predictor of good outcomes than nearly anything else. At least, that's what economic data from the last fifty years says. These "narratives" are just that, fictional stories told to support a prevailing social ideology, and yes, they are dangerous, not the least because they ignore the facts.

We can debate all day long about the merits of explaining systemic racism to young black kids vs keeping them ignorant about it. However the people ignoring the facts are the ones who deny systemic racism exists. It may be better for children of color to be ignorant about it, but certainly not adults of any racial background.

[deleted]

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#203

Post by ne0flex »

breakyerself wrote: post #146
ne0flex wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue there's a lot more nuances to system racism than the general narrative that is currently being perpettuated. Looking into those nuances would be frowned upon because certain groups differ from other groups for reasons that are not truly understood but would cause us to ask questions we're not comfortable with. Though anecdotal, I know several adults who have fallen into the "it's because systemic racism tha…

I mean really. Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a better work ethic? The laziness comes first. The excuse is crafted after the fact. If it wasnt that they'd claim to have some other disadvantage or problem.

>Do you really think that if someone who's unsuccessful because of laziness that if only they hadn't heard about systemic racism they would have a better work ethic?

In the case of that particular individual I'd say it's less laziness and more of systemic racism being deterrent to attempt self-improvement. In the "even if I try, I won't get ahead because these systems will hold me back" sense.

The point I was trying to make is that it's a lot easier to point the blame at something than admit to yourself that you suck - even if you're capable.

I don't know what your definition of systemic racism is, so I can't make a proper argument for/against it.

In any case, your comment has given me some food for thought in how I approach this person.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#204

Post by dragonwriter »

xupybd wrote: post #75
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another person of color, I agree. What really makes me nervous is the talk of "white privilege". Although it is not meant as such, it is saying that in the world as is, all things being equal, white people are superior to people of color. For example, if you had to evaluate totally objectively whether you should hire a white CEO or a person of color as CEO, and they were otherwise equal, if you believe in the fram…

My main problem with White privilege is that is drawing a big line between white people and people of color. IMO one of the big civil rights achievements was to get rid of that divide. To start seeing people as individuals of equal value, based on their character not group identity. I'm white, my wife is not. I fear where my kids will land in all of this. If we are drawing hard lines between people how will half whit…

> IMO one of the big civil rights achievements was to get rid of that divide.

That’s, yes, the central complaint about White privilege. But from the rest of your comment I suspect thst you actually meant to attribute this problem to mentioning White privilege, rather than to White privilege itself.

> IMO one of the big civil rights achievements was to get rid of that divide.

That...didn’t happen. Though the same kind of White moderates whose indifference Dr. King complained of did, after the successes of the 1960s, like to say that it had as a new rationalization for the same indifference.

> I'm white, my wife is not. I fear where my kids will land in all of this. If we are drawing hard lines between people how will half white children find their place in all this mess?

American society has drawn strong lines on race [0] forever, and, yes, that has special (not necessarily uniquely bad, but distinct) impacts on those of mixed race. (Source: nearly half a century living mixed race in America.)

> To me it shouldn't matter they have multiple cultures they come from, in the same way I'm Scottish and Irish.

Black and White in the US isn’t a simple divide of culture, its a divide of shared experience of still-prevalent racism.

[0] Particularly black/white, which is not to say others aren’t issues, but, e.g., the One Drop Rule, intermarriage bans through most of thr country through the mid-20th Century (and the entire South until struck down federally in 1967), and other things particularly focussed on the black/white divide.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#205

Post by sriku »

rayiner wrote: post #30

> So victimhood is a learned behavior after a certain age. As a brown guy with kids in the school system, that's why recent trends in education alarm me. I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. It's dangerous experimentation with kids' psychology. Growing up as one…

Agree! ... not making an identity out of victimhood looks central (to me) to develop te next generation to not have/tolerate these problems.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#206

Post by ptr2voidStar »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #155
rednerrus wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing but I have girls. I don't want them growing up with the locus of control outside of themselves. The studies are convincing that that is the worst thing you can for a child.

I'm a woman and in some sense I had sort of a sheltered childhood. I was one of the top students in my graduating high school class and I had a lot of firsthand experience with being taken seriously, having my opinions respected and feeling just as entitled as anyone else to speak my mind, etc. And then I became an adult and life did not go how I thought it would and I spent a lot of time trying to figure out what we…

I am glad we have some women amongst us. Too many people in here suffer from "silo thinking"

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#207

Post by ptr2voidStar »

Blikkentrekker wrote: post #199
rayiner wrote: post #30

> So victimhood is a learned behavior after a certain age. As a brown guy with kids in the school system, that's why recent trends in education alarm me. I don't want my kids to be taught that there's this amorphous but pervasive "systemic racism" and "white supremacy" out to get people who look like them, but which they can't do anything about. It's dangerous experimentation with kids' psychology. Growing up as one…

> I learned we should treat everyone like we'd want to be treated ourselves. Words said by the man who has no conception of individual variance. The sexually addicted compulsive rapist would do well to ignore this advice, for instance.

Thank you! I always do a hard eye roll - whenever I hear those banal words "treat everyone like we'd want to be treated ourselves".

This is often regurgitated without forethought- differently people clearly want different things, and go about seeking those things in manifestly different ways enough to make this almost surely - bad advice, despite it "coming from a good place".

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#208

Post by WalterBright »

zxzax wrote: post #31
WalterBright wrote: post #5

I'll be more brazen. I don't know about other countries, but if you live in the US and am an adult of sound mind and body, you're not a victim. If your life isn't working for you, reassess your situation, develop a plan, and get busy!

Walter, please don't say these things. I get what you're trying to communicate but there is such thing as a victim. You can be doing everything right and still have harm brought to you and your loved ones by circumstances beyond your control. People who lost their families in 9/11 or Hurricane Katrina didn't end up that way because they didn't have a plan or weren't busy.

I've often thought about what I'd have done in those towers on 9/11. New York's finest who ran to that maelstrom to help are indeed New York's Finest.

I agree you can do everything right and still have grievous harm befall you. But you can dramatically reduce the odds of that.

For example, I know what sorts of natural disasters the Pacific Northwest is prone to. I've taken steps to reduce the odds of one of them destroying me. There's still an element of risk, and I accept that.

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#209

Post by dnissley »

anigbrowl wrote: post #152
slowmovintarget wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Teaching that words can't do you permanent harm, yes. How you feel when being called a name, or having someone say something hurtful may not be a choice. But whether you dwell on it, whether you choose to continue to feel hurt, whether you choose to act in revenge... all of those things are within one's control. We absolutely should teach self-control and mastery of one's emotions to children. It helps them become sa…

Why is it so much the problem of the person being targeted though? The approach you describe seems not to address the behavior of the aggressors at all.

There's a tricky balance that needs to be struck between personal agency and the mechanisms which society puts in place to prevent aggressors from victimizing people.

One such mechanism is the mentality of "believing victims". Not a bad thing on the face of it, but my feeling is that we've tipped over into a world where people are incentivized to become victims. In this way the mechanism ends up becoming weaponized and wielded like a cudgel by those good at playing the victim against a new set of victims who just aren't as good at that game.

These new victims may end up even more disadvantaged due to ideological fashions which shape who we see as victims (e.g. "girls are more likely to be victims than boys") and dictate to what degree we should mete out empathy (e.g. "we have to make sure we aren't overly empathetic towards the white kids since we are biased and they are privileged").

Re: Why People Feel Like Victims

#210

Post by WalterBright »

anigbrowl wrote: post #164
sakopov wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't how I read OP's post. The OP isn't talking about a catastrophic or life-altering event which makes one a victim. Rather, being faced with difficult circumstances and life choices which can be altered and addressed with effort and plain hard work instead of blaming others and falling into victimhood.

While the OP might not have intended it this way, that's also a formula for perpetuating any 'difficult circumstances' that happen to be profitable for others. A simple example which was in the news this week due to a Supreme court case: crack sentencing disparities. You made a bad life choice and sold 50 grams of cocaine and got caught, you might go away for 2 years and then turn your life around. But if you sold 5…

FWIW, I strongly disagree with harsh sentences for drug crimes. I also strongly disagree with harsh sentences for juveniles - note that I qualified my statements with "adults" not children.
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