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Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

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Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#231

Post by sweetheart »

Kranar wrote: post #162
sweetheart wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what this means, can you clarify?

Not everyone agrees with you that raising a farm animal and killing it is in and of itself a form of violence. Certainly many forms of factory farming are absolutely abhorrent and should be eliminated, but saying that what many farmers who raise cattle, chicken, pork and a variety of animals, and do so with respect and care are engaging in a form of cruelty and violence is not an opinion everyone shares. An animal li…

Do you still think that if it applies to someone nurturing a dog to adulthood, and then stunning it, slitting its throat, and drowning it in hot blood water? Would you still accept that as the Way Things Are?

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#232

Post by danShumway »

Gustomaximus wrote: post #191
sweetheart wrote: post #36

While it is not my experience at all, I understand that some folks have certain negative opinions of Beyond Burgers, and other fake meat/imitation burgers: - The texture is off - Maybe they cook strangely - Potentially less taste But the most important thing about them, and the reason I urge everyone to at least _try_ Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals. This is not an argument that fairs well…

> Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals. I find this interesting, in that cropping has plenty of violent against animals but one step removed. I have a small cattle property, we run on hill country with diversified ecosystem, mixed grass and bushland. We have a heap of native animals living across the property. And at the end of the day the steers do get sent of for slaughter after 18 to 24 mont…

This is a complicated topic, with multiple responses, but I'm only going to touch on one specific aspect of it. Reducing violence in regular farming is an admirable goal that people should strive towards. It's also worth talking about the environmental costs of ingredients like palm oil, and it's worth talking about the human costs of products like cocoa.

I don't mean to diminish any of that at all, it's all worth paying attention to.

However, the majority of meat we eat today comes from factory farming, and the majority of the feed for those animals comes from... traditional crop farming. So it's not really like eating meat is ever going to result in less death. We would need to move entirely to free-grazing cattle, which frankly, I do not believe is scalable enough or cost-effective enough to meet food demand.

I know people who are not vegetarian or vegan, but who care very deeply about animal welfare, and who care a lot about where their beef/pork/chicken is sourced from. I admire that, I am not going to shame anyone for caring about anything. My own opinions about killing animals aside, at the very least ethically sourcing meat is miles better than not caring at all. But I no longer believe that's something that's feasible to expect most people to do; in a weird way I think going vegetarian is easier for many people than figuring out where their burger at a restaurant came from. And where factory farming is involved, getting rid of meat allows us to engage directly with the costs of farming and eliminate one of the extra steps (cattle) that are layered on top of that process.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#233

Post by andrew_ »

name_nick_sex_m wrote: post #206
andrew_ wrote: post #195

This is a phenomenon that all too often suffers from the distaste of ruinous empathy [1] and moral superiority. I personally don't care why/how [you] _feel_ about this product. Stories about morality and feelings in the alt food market are insufferable and immediately invoke an epic eye roll. I care about what I eat in this order: 1. Is it healthy? 2. Does it taste good? 3. Is it sustainable? Fake meat, at this point…

So your priorities are to be 1. selfish asshole 2. selfish asshole 3. globally conscious and not listed (no importance): 4. against animal cruelty Good to know, thanks for sharing.

This kind of a reply belongs on Twitter, not HN. Since you're new here, I highly recommend reading the guidelines for replying. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I'll leave the most relevant parts to commenting here for you:

> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.

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> Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#234

Post by claudiawerner »

paranoidrobot wrote: post #153
sweetheart wrote: post #36

While it is not my experience at all, I understand that some folks have certain negative opinions of Beyond Burgers, and other fake meat/imitation burgers: - The texture is off - Maybe they cook strangely - Potentially less taste But the most important thing about them, and the reason I urge everyone to at least _try_ Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals. This is not an argument that fairs well…

> they require no violence against animals. While I sympathise with the argument, I think that it's a mistake to push this aspect front and centre. There's a whole lot of people out there who simply like eating meat, and that it means killing an animal is not particularly a problem. The people I've spoken to about Beyond/Impossible and similar fake-meats all tend to think of it as something for vegans/vegetarians, be…

>There's a whole lot of people out there who simply like eating meat, and that it means killing an animal is not particularly a problem.

I'm going to be as neutral as I can be in this comment.

I don't think that's something that should stand in the way; it depends if we're coming from a philosophical perspective, or a political perspective. Arguably, some harms should not be tolerated in civil society - and I think the moral vegetarian case (as expounded by philosophers of all stripes) does some work towards that.

My point is that we can name a variety of behaviour that a large proportion of society engages in which are also harmful. That doesn't mean it's not worth trying to convince them, nor to discourage those behaviours through the softer power the government has available to it - higher taxation on meat agriculture and the end of subsidies for meat agriculture being examples. I have met very, very few moral vegetarians who wish to outright ban meat production, at least immediately.

How did the population in general become acclimatised to other things we now see as immoral[0]? Would that work for moral vegetarianism? I don't have the answers to those questions, but I'm sure someone has discussed it previously. Eating meat is an ancient tradition - even older than that - but so were other moral norms, such as the prohibition of homosexuality.

We very, very frequently shame other people on the basis of their conduct as regards morality - the principle of moral judgements. Most (though not all) philosophers argue this is beneficial to society if morality is worth talking about at all. We still shame adultery for moral reasons. What would it take to bring meat production, or even consumption, to a similar level of disdain?

[0] See any of: slavery, marital rape, revenge porn, CSEM, regulations against abortion, regulations against homosexuality, child marriage, Jim Crow laws - and that's just considering the Western world.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#235

Post by sidlls »

sweetheart wrote: post #219
sidlls wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is such a thing, for example the slaughtering of an animal for food.

If you watch the footage of pigs being half-stunned, throats slit, and then drowning in a vat of hot blood, and can earnestly tell me you don't see that as cruel, I promise you I will never make that argument again.

As if that were the only way to slaughter an animal.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#236

Post by jandrewrogers »

MPSimmons wrote: post #66
sweetheart wrote: post #36

While it is not my experience at all, I understand that some folks have certain negative opinions of Beyond Burgers, and other fake meat/imitation burgers: - The texture is off - Maybe they cook strangely - Potentially less taste But the most important thing about them, and the reason I urge everyone to at least _try_ Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals. This is not an argument that fairs well…

I really enjoy both BeyondBeef and Impossible Burger. My thoughts are that BeyondBeef has a kind of plastic-y smell, but is almost exactly right in terms of color and texture. The smell is not concerning to me, but it is distinct for my palette. I still eat it, and don't mind. Aside from the burgers, I also really enjoy the spicy Italian sausages. There is a slightly different taste than pork-based sausages, but I wo…

FWIW, I thought the Impossible Burger clearly tasted like heavily processed legumes, not like meat. I grew up in one of the major legume growing regions of the US and was raised on them in a part of the world where the local food culture knows how to get the most out of them. It is very satisfying when done right, and I eat far more than the average American to this day, but no one would confuse it with meat. Impossible Burger etc tastes like overly processed legumes with some chemical-y overtones.

Ironically, I think it would be far more appealing if they didn’t try to make it simulated meat and leaned into its strengths. Vegetarian burgers that don’t pretend to be meat taste better. Legumes that are expertly processed as a protein, without trying to be meat, taste better. The Impossible Burger falls into the same category as “fat-free mayo”; trying to maintain the pretense ultimately produces a poor experience.

I am an accidental vegetarian most days but I won’t eat Beyond Beef or Impossible Burger. The products taste unpleasantly synthetic. If I wanted to eat legumes, I can create something far better tasting for much less money. If I want a burger, I’ll eat a burger — marketing aside, the gap is still very wide.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#237

Post by rallison »

DistressedDrone wrote: post #198
MPSimmons wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really enjoy both BeyondBeef and Impossible Burger. My thoughts are that BeyondBeef has a kind of plastic-y smell, but is almost exactly right in terms of color and texture. The smell is not concerning to me, but it is distinct for my palette. I still eat it, and don't mind. Aside from the burgers, I also really enjoy the spicy Italian sausages. There is a slightly different taste than pork-based sausages, but I wo…

As a vegetarian, I really don't get why people are so focused on realistic meat replacement. Like, there are other things to eat. I especially don't get why people want the texture of red meat like beef patties. So you like... soft food? There's no arguing tastes, it's just weird to me that that's what other vegetarians would care about.

I thought this way too until the Beyond/Impossible burgers. Before them, the garden burgers and similar options mostly got a "why bother?" reaction from me. Give me a dish that is meant to be vegetarian, not something trying and failing to replicate a meat dish.

But I also love a good burger. To each their own, of course, but a well cooked burger (well cooked, not well done) made with quality meat.. it's hard to top. And that's the thing with Beyond and Impossible - while they don't hit the level of top tier burgers, they're actually "close enough" to the taste and texture of real beef that I actually enjoy them as a burger, not just as a burger substitute.

And being close enough is massively important. You aren't going to get the world to go vegetarian on ethical appeals. But plant-based meats that are able to get close enough, especially if they can end up priced cheaper than meat, will provide a much easier transition to less meat consumption. And hey, it doesn't even need to mean that people go to 100% vegetarian; significant reductions would help a lot.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#238

Post by arcticbull »

DistressedDrone wrote: post #198
MPSimmons wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really enjoy both BeyondBeef and Impossible Burger. My thoughts are that BeyondBeef has a kind of plastic-y smell, but is almost exactly right in terms of color and texture. The smell is not concerning to me, but it is distinct for my palette. I still eat it, and don't mind. Aside from the burgers, I also really enjoy the spicy Italian sausages. There is a slightly different taste than pork-based sausages, but I wo…

As a vegetarian, I really don't get why people are so focused on realistic meat replacement. Like, there are other things to eat. I especially don't get why people want the texture of red meat like beef patties. So you like... soft food? There's no arguing tastes, it's just weird to me that that's what other vegetarians would care about.

As an omnivore it’s because burger is delicious. If I can get the burger without the cow I’m down. Frankly forget about what they’re replacing, they just taste pretty good. Just a round puck of yum.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#239

Post by hallway_monitor »

flatline wrote: post #28
tashoecraft wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is that comparing against plain red meat with no salt added? Because if so that’s not really a fair comparison because you generally add a decent amount of salt to burger whereas you don’t really need to for beyond

I never add salt to ground beef patties, am I unusual in this respect? They taste fine without, especially when you add all the toppings.

Salt, pepper, garlic, dried onion, Worcestershire sauce. Top with mayo and onion on a toasted bun.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#240

Post by spicymaki »

Gustomaximus wrote: post #191
sweetheart wrote: post #36

While it is not my experience at all, I understand that some folks have certain negative opinions of Beyond Burgers, and other fake meat/imitation burgers: - The texture is off - Maybe they cook strangely - Potentially less taste But the most important thing about them, and the reason I urge everyone to at least _try_ Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals. This is not an argument that fairs well…

> Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals. I find this interesting, in that cropping has plenty of violent against animals but one step removed. I have a small cattle property, we run on hill country with diversified ecosystem, mixed grass and bushland. We have a heap of native animals living across the property. And at the end of the day the steers do get sent of for slaughter after 18 to 24 mont…

> I find this interesting, in that cropping has plenty of violent against animals but one step removed.

This is true, the produce farmers kills pests insects and animals to produce crops at high volume.

The issue for me is scale. You need to feed the farm animals which leads to more soy and grain being produced which leads to more death.

I also can’t guarantee that the produce farmer or the farm owner is vegan which means I might be indirectly supporting animal agriculture multiple steps removed.

That way of thinking provides no viable solutions. I can at least control myself and know that I am taking steps to minimize harm.

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