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Why I Work on Ads

jefftk.com

691–700 of 882 posts

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#691

The online ad business generally mystifies me. While an awful lot of the internet, especially the surveillance advertising part, looks to be the greatest misallocation of engineering (and other) talent in the history of the world, ya gotta ask about the efficacy. The only reasonably accurate targeting I've ever run into is the occasional ad for something I just browsed on Amazon. I've never clicked on an internet ad.…

Generally yes but Instagram ads are somehow amazingly well-targeted towards me. Literally every ad I say to myself "wow, that is actually something I would consider buying" and in certain instances, I have. Outside of Instagram it is exceedingly rare that I would purchase something based on an ad.

be aware of the conversations you have in a 24hr to 48hr period, see if "targeted" ads appear in your feed, which relate to things shared in those conversations.

I've seen things go from saying things in a conversation to targeted advert on Twitter, for example, in under 1hr routinely (although not always). Many of my peers have reported the same. While I've reproduced this on multiple devices (Android + iPhone) over many tests, I've been unable to isolate the app(s) doing this and how it works.

It's baffling how it's done and at scale, but somehow a few organizations seem to have extremely advanced adtech in production.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#692

The author writes that you can either pay with money or you can “pay with your attention”. What’s left unsaid is the cost of that attention. I believe that cost is very high and it isn’t just ads, it’s the design of countless products including social media sites, games and even the site you’re reading this on right now. It’s all designed to extract as much attention as possible, and the cost is people’s ability to c…

It's not just the cost in attention--those ads are produced with the price of our privacy included in the cost.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#693
Here's an honest question: Why should a search engine cost so much?

Look at Wikipedia - it's a search engine and content repository for all of the world's knowledge, and its operating expenses are around $100M / year.

The Internet Archive has an annual budget of $10M / year.

Google on the other hand, has annual revenues of $181B / year, or about 2000 times Wikipedia's spending.

Is the crawling part hard? The folks at Common Crawl (https://commoncrawl.org/) crawl the entire web every month and release it free of charge.

What about the search algorithms? Well, you can do a bunch with TFIDF and PageRank, for which patient protection has expired.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the cost of hosting a ubiquitous search engine would be double Wikipedia's annual costs. Still about a thousand times less expensive than Google.

Ads don't pay for a search engine. They pay for vast amounts of excess.

What keeps such a solution from us? Here are a few of many reasons:

* Google pays billions of dollars a year to make it the default option on browsers.

* Exclusive deals with portals such as LinkedIn which exclude open engines such as Archive.org from their content.

* Limits on peer-to-peer connections perpetuated by IPv4 which prevent us from hosting a distributed engine ourselves.

Posing the problem as one of "there's no other way to pay for this expensive machine" is pretty lame isn't it?

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#694
The humblebrag about this individual's income and charitable giving at the top of this article is quite terrible. The depth of detail linked is irrelevant to his point (a simple, "I give a lot of my income to charity; the more I earn, the more I give" suffices) and, aside from that, isn't an argument in support of working on ads. He could earn a similar amount of money working at a business that doesn't have ads as a business model (I know this because I work at such a company).

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#695
This is kind of crazy thought experiment, but would the Internet be really different today if there's no ads? (e.g. somehow it's been considered extremely uncool from the beginning so it's naturally shunned.) Many ad-supporters spread a doomsday scenario like "without ads, the vast majority of the good Internet will die". Is that really true?

I dunno. Maybe it's different. But I still put up my contents (writings and source codes) for free with no ads. And it's not so strange to imagine that there are many people like me. Maybe a newspaper would put up a part of their articles for promotion. In that case, the contents themselves are ads. That's not such a bad world either!

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#696
post #640

The online ad business generally mystifies me. While an awful lot of the internet, especially the surveillance advertising part, looks to be the greatest misallocation of engineering (and other) talent in the history of the world, ya gotta ask about the efficacy. The only reasonably accurate targeting I've ever run into is the occasional ad for something I just browsed on Amazon. I've never clicked on an internet ad.…

> I've never clicked on an internet ad. Me neither, but marketing is significantly about awareness, not just the clicks. If you've seen it, it is at some level "in you", and the brand has (fractionally) been built. I know this doesn't apply to all ads by any means, but it's important to remember that advertising also works this way.

It's amazing to see the amount of people in this post that don't click ads. I really try to avoid to click them, I quite often open an incognito window to search for product I've just seen in an ad (I'm sure Google will find a way to figure out that an incognito user with the same IP as me is... me, but it feels better to try).

But I do click ads in my work, if the top (ad) link on Google is something relevant I might click it if I don't care for the company. I try to avoid clicking links for companies I really like since I work in a very ad heavy industry and know how much CPC can cost.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#697
post #9
post #4

Biggest issue with this argument - advertising supported businesses are fine, contextual advertising is fine, targeted cross site advertising is a pointless red queen race that is undermining our society in multiple ways.

Can you say more what you mean by "pointless red queen race"? Let's say someone wants to sell fishing equipment. The traditional way of doing this is to buy ads on fishing sites. So now my fishing equipment purchases make there be more writing about fishing; yay! Then one of the fishing websites decides to put a tracking pixel on their site to drop "fishing website visitor" cookies (or, in a future without third-part…

People who don't know how the sausage is made expect that when they're alone in a room, what they read about or watch or listen to is between them and no one. Imagine for a second your fishing interested potential customer didn't have any digital devices at all. They just asked friends and neighbors for word of mouth recommendations or went to the nearest Bass Pro Shop where they expected the people who work there would know what they're talking about.

Fishing retailers have a choice. They can rely on the strength and quality of their products and organic interest in fishing as a recreational activity. Or they can contract out their marketing to a commercial version of a spy agency that invents a silent, invisible device that follows their customers around when they're otherwise alone, recording everything they ever do to learn how to better predict their future spending preferences.

Surely, even if this resulted in better sales for the fishing industry, lower prices for the consumer, and the ability of niche publications to exist by predicting that their readers also like fishing and charging the fishing industry to sell them this information, you would not find this okay.

You've convinced yourself that this kind of surveillance and profiling is totally okay and different when it takes place on network connected computing devices and that people have even consented to it, but the actual people being monitored do not feel this way.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#698
post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Removing personal responsibility from people is in itself a source of many social ills. For example think about how much better society could've been over the past decades if, instead of saying "people can't reasonably make decisions about [insert drug here] so we're going to illegalize all of them" we'd said "wow, adults can make decisions for themselves".

Personal responsibility is not an excuse for disregarding the suffering of others. The war on drugs was a fundementally bad approach to fixing the problem. If it had worked and drug use had dropped near zero over a decade or two, you wouldn't see the current level of support for ending it. There are other cases where removing personal choice is not controversial (such as seat belt laws, incarceration, In fact, the fa…

That's... exactly my point?

Your original comments were that you wanted to outlaw certain types of ads entirely, war-on-drugs style. Not "take care of people who might be adversely affected by certain types of ads", but rather "these ads shouldn't exist", even if (from the broader perspective) that approach could cause more harm than good.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#699

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Generally yes but Instagram ads are somehow amazingly well-targeted towards me. Literally every ad I say to myself "wow, that is actually something I would consider buying" and in certain instances, I have. Outside of Instagram it is exceedingly rare that I would purchase something based on an ad.

be aware of the conversations you have in a 24hr to 48hr period, see if "targeted" ads appear in your feed, which relate to things shared in those conversations. I've seen things go from saying things in a conversation to targeted advert on Twitter, for example, in under 1hr routinely (although not always). Many of my peers have reported the same. While I've reproduced this on multiple devices (Android + iPhone) over…

I still don’t believe audio surveillance exists at this scale, and I still haven’t seen any evidence that these events are anything but coincidence.

It seems to me that Facebook is extremely good at targeting me with ads (via Instagram) for products I might be interested in. I’m also much more likely to talk about products I’m interested in. I’m also much more likely to notice the spooky scenarios where the ads match what I was talking about, but not so likely to notice the ads unrelated to my conversations.

There are so many ways we could detect such surveillance. Power consumption, network usage, mic activity indicators, etc. but I still have seen no such evidence.

What do you think could be going on?

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#700

The online ad business generally mystifies me. While an awful lot of the internet, especially the surveillance advertising part, looks to be the greatest misallocation of engineering (and other) talent in the history of the world, ya gotta ask about the efficacy. The only reasonably accurate targeting I've ever run into is the occasional ad for something I just browsed on Amazon. I've never clicked on an internet ad.…

One of the craziest parts is the total lack of accountability. Google / FB just say they show your ad to a XXXX million people. You owe them $XXXX.

Wouldn't traditional "offline" advertising be even worse?

"We suspect X million people watch this TV show (based on highly inaccurate Nielsen ratings) and then stayed around for the ad break, pay XX dollars."

"XXX people passed by your billboard, XX saw it, X people visited your website and made a purchase, pay XX dollars."

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