Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers • Hacker News Board

Re: Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers

#81

Post by kodah » Thu, May 06, 2021, 4:07 PM UTC

creshal wrote: post #19

elmerfud wrote: post #3

This article strikes me largely as, someone else should be doing this for me so I can benefit from their hard work. It's as if they miss the point of Linux, free software, etc... This problem exists because people, like this author, who are in to vintage systems aren't taking up the mantle to maintain a distribution to support their old systems. It's like they want the benefit with zero effort. Become a leader, start…

OP first needs to decide what the actual problem is they want to solve. > Either they are filled with bugs, refuse to install on my computer's hard drive, require too much RAM, run too slowly, lack important drivers or codecs, are no longer actively supported, do not support 32-bit CPU's, are too difficult for novices to use, or have other highly-annoying problems like, for example, poor use of swap space. Most of th…

> poor use of swap space

Swap is configured by the user. You do need to know what you're doing in order to configure it to your usecase.

Re: Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers

#82

Post by anthk » Thu, May 06, 2021, 4:10 PM UTC

creshal wrote: post #65

lizknope wrote: post #61

I have old computers, Raspberry Pi's, and virtual machine cloud instances with just 128MB to 512MB RAM and they work perfectly fine for the tasks I use them for. None of those tasks involve anything graphical. If you want a modern web browser then you need a computer made in the last 10 years or so. The statement that "It's just a browser!" is not a good argument. The modern web is very resource intensive so you need…

10 year old laptops with 2 RAM slots can take 16 GB RAM (32 GB for the 4-slot desktop replacements), you don't even need to find some esoteric artisan slimline Linux distribution, you can just slap Ubuntu/Fedora on it and call it a day. > The statement that "It's just a browser!" is not a good argument. The modern web is very resource intensive so you need a decent computer. The modern web is resource intensive, but…

On Chrome: try ZRAM first. Then, edit

/etc/profile.d/chrome.sh and chmod +x it.

If you use Chromium, replace CHROME_USER_FLAGS with CHROMIUM_USER_FLAGS .

      #!/bin/sh
        export CHROME_USER_FLAGS=" --no-default-browser-check --no-pings --no-wifi --no-recovery-component --no-report-upload --safebrowsing-disable-download-protection --safebrowsing-disable-extension-blacklist --safebrowsing-disable-auto-update --arc-disable-app-sync --arc-disable-locale-sync --arc-disable-play-auto-install --arc-force-cache-app-icons --ash-disable-touch-exploration-mode --autofill-server-url about:config --block-new-web-contents --bwsi --cloud-print-uri about:config --cloud-print-xmpp-endpoint about:config --connectivity-check-url about:config --crash-server-url about:config --cryptauth-http-host about:config --cryptauth-v2-http-host about:config --cryptauth-v2-enrollment-http-host about:config --data-reduction-proxy-config-url about:config --data-reduction-proxy-pingback-url about:config --data-reduction-proxy-server-experiments-disabled --device-management-url about:config --disable-background-networking --disable-client-side-phishing-detection --disable-data-reduction-proxy-warmup-url-fetch --disable-data-reduction-proxy-warmup-url-fetch-callback --disable-default-apps --disable-demo-mode --disable-device-disabling --disable-device-discovery-notifications --disable-dinosaur-easter-egg --disable-domain-reliability --disable-cloud-import --disable-component-cloud-policy --disable-eol-notification --disable-gaia-services --disable-login-screen-apps --disable-machine-cert-request --disable-notifications --disable-ntp-popular-sites --disable-ntp-most-likely-favicons-from-server --disable-offer-upload-credit-cards --disable-offer-store-unmasked-wallet-cards --disable-password-generation --disable-permission-action-reporting --disable-proximity-auth-bluetooth-low-energy-discovery --disable-push-api-background-mode  --disable-remote-core-animation --disable-signin-promo --disable-signin-scoped-device-id --disable-suggestions-ui --disable-sync-app-list --disable-sync --disable-system-timezone-automatic-detection --disable-test-root-certs --disable-wake-on-wifi --feedback-server about:config --gcm-checkin-url about:config --gcm-mcs-endpoint about:config --gcm-registration-url about:config --google-apis-url about:config --google-base-url about:config --google-doodl-url about:config --google-url about:config --light --lso-url about:config --market-url-for-testing about:config --oauth-account-manager-url about:config --optimization-guide-service-url about:config --override-metrics-upload-url about:config --permission-request-api-url about:config --realtime-reporting-url about:config --search-provider-logo-url about:config --sync-url about:config --third-party-doodle-url about:config --trace-upload-url about:config --variations-insecure-server-url about:config --variations-server about:config"

Re: Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers

#83

Post by selfhoster11 » Thu, May 06, 2021, 4:25 PM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #52

selfhoster11 wrote: post #4

I'm as opposed to throwing away machines as the author is, but I also recognise that anything with less than 1 GB of RAM is unusable in this day and age. Modern websites are simply too large to handle on such equipment, and most people do their work online.

While I don't agree with the tone, and the expectation that other should ensure that you can keep running a free OS on a 12 year old laptop, there is a point to this website. I did all the thing I do now 15 years ago on my laptop. Sure video quality have improved, screen resolution have increased and I can do more stuff online, if I want to. All the daily stuff, browsing the web, hobby programming and paying my bills…

Hobby programming and paying bills are relatively lightweight tasks. Using cloud document editors and social media definitely isn't. At best, your computer will have noticable latency and at worst it'll crawl so slowly it's unusable. Check out https://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm for some thoughts on this topic that align with mine.

The network speed is by no means an issue. The problem is that all websites feel the need to mess with their DOM and execute megabytes of JavaScript just to do basic tasks. Then your bottleneck becomes the processor speed and the amount of RAM, the latter a larger obstacle in my experience.

Re: Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers

#84

Post by selfhoster11 » Thu, May 06, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

luminarious wrote: post #10

selfhoster11 wrote: post #4

I'm as opposed to throwing away machines as the author is, but I also recognise that anything with less than 1 GB of RAM is unusable in this day and age. Modern websites are simply too large to handle on such equipment, and most people do their work online.

Do you mean images and media, since these could be avoided/ mitigated? Or do you mean the browser itself won't work in a constrained environment?

Nope, I mean the rampant abuse of JavaScript where it doesn't belong, but images and media don't help matters any. More info here: https://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm

Re: Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers

#85

Post by selfhoster11 » Thu, May 06, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

Tepix wrote: post #11

selfhoster11 wrote: post #4

I'm as opposed to throwing away machines as the author is, but I also recognise that anything with less than 1 GB of RAM is unusable in this day and age. Modern websites are simply too large to handle on such equipment, and most people do their work online.

A Raspberry Pi 1 with 256MB works very well with Pi-hole. It has a lot of free RAM to spare. I think your posts underlines an important fact: Nowadays more and more tasks require an up-to-date internet browser. These browsers need a lot of RAM. Both their complexity and the websites' is increasing all the time.

Works with Pi-hole as a server, or as a web client? If the latter, I will vehemently disagree. Raspberry Pi 1 was slow with native apps during the time it was released, to use it with the modern web would be painful.

Re: Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers

#86

Post by GuB-42 » Thu, May 06, 2021, 4:32 PM UTC

creshal wrote: post #77

GuB-42 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a problem inherent to Linux, that is, you need maintainers, with APIs changing regularly. Windows is a lot more stable in that regard, and mainframes are not even on the same league. It is a choice made by the Linux community, it goes very well with its open source nature and it has advantage in terms of performance and ease of implementing new features, but the drawback is that you can't keep compatibility w…

*inherent to the GNU/whatever userland. Linux-the-kernel has not only a stable API, but also a stable ABI, and you can run 20 years old software compiled against that ABI just fine. The problem is that the userland doesn't give a fuck and breaks itself every other day just for the lulz, starting with the glibc, which doesn't even allow fully static compilation. So you'll have to use 20 years old versions of everythin…

I would rather say, the kernel-userland interface is stable. I think it is one of the strongest rule regarding the Linux kernel: don't break userland.

In the kernel itself, however, drivers have to be constantly maintained, which is a PITA if your driver is not in the mainline, but very nice if it is, especially if there is someone to do the job of maintaining it for you.

Again, choices are made, you can't have everything. The ones that led to Linux are good, we know that with the power of hindsight, seeing how successful it has became, not because everything about it is positive (it can't).

Re: Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers

#87

Post by initramfs » Thu, May 06, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

Dahlia OS https://dahliaos.io/ uses 256MB RAM

Re: Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers

#88

Post by leephillips » Thu, May 06, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

Aeronwen wrote: post #80

FirstLvR wrote: post #35

can someone explain the use of the word vintage? is like something that apparently looks old? something that is actually old?

Vintage used to mean something 50+ years old, but now it means 20+ years old. Antique used to mean 100+ years old, but now it means something covered in dust. If it looks old, but isn't, it's Retro.

Or steampunk if it has some brass on it.

Re: Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers

#89

Post by LargoLasskhyfv » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:32 PM UTC

bruce343434 wrote: post #70

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bit complicated. Linux the kernel no longer supports certain machines for valid reasons. However, many if not most userland tools (with the exception of these that actually use certain CPU extensions) would gladly run on an 386 if compiled for it even if the current kernel version doesn't support it. The problem is, you need the whole system to support, say, 386. So one solution would be to use the last versio…

So in a nutshell, install gentoo

Almost infeasible because of much longer compile times and higher memory requirements for doing so.

If you have access to systems capable of doing that, usually the need for using such old systems doesn't exist. Except if you'd like to have some X-terminals, or hand them down (refurbished) to relatives, some community projects, or similar.

I'd go for something like Antix because that way you have access to the almost infinite binary package repositories.

Re: Linux Has Largely Abandoned Still-Useful Near-Vintage Computers

#90

Post by LargoLasskhyfv » Thu, May 06, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

anthk wrote: post #79

forinti wrote: post #43

I've recently tried to give new life to and old Pentium 166MMX with 80MB of RAM. It has Windows 2000 installed and I tried many small Linux distributions. DSL runs fine. You have to lower your expectations, but you can have a nice little system to play around with. You also won't have a modern browser, but, even if you did, you wouldn't have enough RAM or CPU to use most sites. My conclusion is that if you want to ke…

This has software a bit newer than Damn Small Linux: http://delicate-linux.net/ Try compiling a modern TLS under /opt, compile and link a new mbedtls library, and try compiling Dillo from Mercurial. Edit ~/.dillo/dillorc in order to set the User Agent to either PSP or Opera Mini 3. Or better, Lynx. The Lynx one. Web pages got lovely formatted where supported: http_user_agent="Lynx/2.8.9rel.1 libwww-FM/2.14 SSL-MM/1.4…

Hm. Interesting site, but reading the recommended configuration I'm wondering what they mean by m68060@100Mhz? FPGA, one of the maybe few 100s turbocards worldwide, or what? :-)