Why I Work on Ads • Hacker News Board

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#161

Post by tnzm » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

dhimes wrote: post #75

alxlaz wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do all the examples from the advertising industry have such easy-peasy, neutral goods? Fishing equipment. Basket weaving books. Dog food. Targeted advertising hasn't been a blessing just for small businesses selling fishing equipment and organic combucha, but also -- actually, especially , for companies that sell things like: * Potentially addictive subscriptions (for e.g. online casinos or other gambling games)…

* HIV meds * LGBT*A forums * politically charged sites * cancer/heart disease/diabetes pages

And animal husbandry!

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#162

Post by omginternets » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

whitepaint wrote: post #129

Aren't effective ads good for society? Don't they make us prosperous? Jobs are created, people get cheaper goods, many small businesses emerge?

You're begging the question. Are they a net good? Do they make us prosperous? Do they create jobs, etc?

Because there's a strong case to be made that they:

- exploit the credulous, mentally-deficient and emotionally unstable

- carry significant externalities in the form of personal data collection & malware

- contribute to psychological distress (anxiety, degraded sense of self-worth, poor body image, etc)

- cause financial distress by encouraging unnecessary spending

- act as a vector for selling harmful products (tobacco, predatory loans, etc.)

etc.

If you want to take the consequentialist approach, you have to contend with these questions as well. You'll also have to admit that the net balance is unclear at best.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#163

Post by k__ » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

"I give half of what I earn to the most effective charities I can find, and the more I earn the more I can give."

It makes me sick to read this garbage.

This charity bullshit is what too many rich people hide behind to rationalize the crap they do to humanity.

Bezos and Gates destroyed so much good on their way up, they will never be able to buy themselves out with charity.

Same goes for the author of that article. It's nice that they want to help people in need, but doing so by shitting on the rest of humanity certainly isn't the best way to do this.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#164

Post by celticninja » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:14 PM UTC

I don't even need to read the article, it's money right, it's always money.

Sure he probably goes into paragraphs about other reasons or what he does with the money, but it boils down to money. The author chose to sell his/her time to an advertising company. Thats OK, we all need to work. But I dont need a blog post from them to justify their choice, they arent making me think more of them. They might make themselves feel better but it boils down to they chose to do something not great for more money, than choosing something more worthwhile for less money.

The sad bit is the amount they would earn not in advertising probably would not be much below what they currently earn. But they still made that choice and they have to live with it.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#165

Post by teachingassist » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #29

The author jefftk is getting unfairly downvoted maybe because cynics just see it as a version of, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." I will offer a contrarian opinion as a user whose salary does not depend on advertising: the advertising model for using Google search and watching Youtube videos works better for me as a consumer . The alternati…

> The author jefftk is getting unfairly downvoted maybe because cynics just see it as a version of, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

It reads a lot like that.

Jeff posits that advertising is competing only with paywalls and brushes aside hobby work, people producing content for the pure benefit of it, as if that is not impacted.

If I produce something creative with real value as part of a hobby, I know there is a high chance it will be copied/stolen by a slick advertiser who will then out-compete me.

So, I'm net less motivated to participate in the whole system of creating content.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#166

Post by stevenicr » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:15 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #29

The author jefftk is getting unfairly downvoted maybe because cynics just see it as a version of, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." I will offer a contrarian opinion as a user whose salary does not depend on advertising: the advertising model for using Google search and watching Youtube videos works better for me as a consumer . The alternati…

If "The alternative of paying $9.99/year for Youtube" was really an option - I would buy it for at least 4 kids I know, and two adults that need it, to remove the horrible ads, especially on mobile.

Get me started on the ads that come with play store apps and "free games".

however at $12/month that would be $864 per year to help them. I would jump at $60 / year for 6 people.. heck that would save me on comcast overages several months of the year.

We still pay for some searches by paying the ad costs of the places we spend money, but that's another thing to figure.. $120 / year for search? I doubt my clicks amount to that for any advertiser. I'd pay 20 for ad free, zero tracking searches, but not 100.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#167

Post by bogwog » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

crumbshot wrote: post #51

omginternets wrote: post #13

I'm always surprised that someone would go through the trouble of justifying their involvement in something prima facie unethical -- in writing, no less -- and fail to address the actual ethical issue. As other have noted in comments, the problem is not with advertising in general, but with the specific way in which Google advertises. I have a hard time believing the author is unaware of this, so I'm left wondering:…

> I have a hard time believing the author is unaware of this, so I'm left wondering: why? What was the point of this exercise? I reckon it was mostly a brag about (1) how he earns over half a million dollars a year for inflicting this upon us all and (2) how much more charitable he is than most of the rest of us.

I found it interesting that the first thing he says to defend his work with ads is that he gives money to charity. If you feel like you need to donate to charity to justify your actions, maybe your actions are evil? There has to be some level of guilt involved in that decision, at the very least.

Which is to say, I don't blame him for what he does. If someone dangled all that money in my face I can't say I wouldn't be tempted to take it, even if people call me evil.

However, the mental gymnastics to write an article like this does bother me. It's the same stuff probably everyone else in ads and other evil industries does to justify their actions. Reading something non-satirical like this makes me feel less good about the world.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#168

Post by crumbshot » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #78

crumbshot wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have a hard time believing the author is unaware of this, so I'm left wondering: why? What was the point of this exercise? I reckon it was mostly a brag about (1) how he earns over half a million dollars a year for inflicting this upon us all and (2) how much more charitable he is than most of the rest of us.

I have a more charitable interpretation. My impression is that the author is dealing with an ethical dilemma that most of us have not had to contend with, and that this essay is an attempt to resolve it. The problem is that its selectively truthful, of course, which renders the whole exercise moot. Even though the author landed on a position in which he is not at fault, it's not going to buy him any peace of mind.

> I have a more charitable interpretation. My impression is that the author is dealing with an ethical dilemma that most of us have not had to contend with, and that this essay is an attempt to resolve it.

That's a good point and I agree that the essay does attempt this. But with opening his piece by letting us all know about his huge income and hefty charitable donations, I felt rather overshadowed the rest of his arguments.

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#169

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

k__ wrote: post #163

"I give half of what I earn to the most effective charities I can find, and the more I earn the more I can give." It makes me sick to read this garbage. This charity bullshit is what too many rich people hide behind to rationalize the crap they do to humanity. Bezos and Gates destroyed so much good on their way up, they will never be able to buy themselves out with charity. Same goes for the author of that article. I…

[deleted]

Re: Why I Work on Ads

#170

Post by jefftk » Thu, May 06, 2021, 3:16 PM UTC

omginternets wrote: post #142

ksec wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In other words, I see no fresh insight and perspective in jefftk's writing, May be I am living in my bubble, but most of the site I visit, mostly mainstream media news in tech, along with most of the social media post, has a flat out dismissal of Ads in general. So while ads works to pay for X isn't a "fresh" insight, it was never really pointed out ( enough ) in most of the discussions. If the discussion in general…

>a flat out dismissal of Ads in general. Yes, I agree. That is indeed another unoriginal, stale perspective. The question for me isn't so much whether hear from one side more than the other, but whether there is some new idea. For me, intellectual content matters much more than equal representation in (social) media. By this measure, the OP's post is equally trite. >In the context of Ads. Not all ads are large-scale…

> this may have been an opportunity for OP to provide some insight into how the adtech market is evolving, and make the case that it is headed in an ethical direction. He did not

There's a section of post with "build browser APIs that will allow this kind of well-targeted advertising without sending your browsing history to advertisers, and then get rid of third-party cookies"; I'm curious what you think of it?