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UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly high or low

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Re: UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly high or low

#81

The whole thing is a masterpiece of bizarre statements dressed up as reasoning Take: Second, between (Ca) spontaneous decentralized hoaxes and lies, and (Cb) hoaxes and lies coordinated by a big central organization, (Cb) seems much more likely. Apply this to reports of something other than UFOs, like, say fairies, ghosts or angels. You don't need to be an Oxford research associate writing about overcoming bias to re…

It's possible that your bias against believing this means your interpretation is a lot of bizarre takes dressed up as the only possible conclusions. What I don't get is the arrogance of every side about this subject. We have no answers. We have no understanding. The government seems to be about to admit as much. But the true believers are sure, and the true debunkers, yourself included, are sure. To me, you're both j…

> I wonder why this topic triggers it?

I think that this is one of those topics that is pefectly ready for inconclusive bike-shedding: easy to build an opinion and argue about it "safely" - without any risk of losing someone's face when proven wrong due to insufficient data. It's some kind of sport where after the match both sides gp home feeling superior to the other because there's no objective way to establish the winner.

Re: UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly high or low

#82

As Stephen Hawkings and Neil deGrasse Tyson have quipped, in Earth’s history, any time a more technologically advanced civilization has come across a less technologically advanced civilization, it has never ended well for the less technologically advanced civilization. Any hypothetical which places a group of extraterrestrials capable of interstellar travel on Earth is fundamentally a catastrophe. It’s a lot like dis…

While true, we as humans can't even fathom how an alien lifeform would reason if they came here. To base how aliens would act if they came here on how we as humans have acted throughout history is kind of stupid in my opinion.

Re: UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly high or low

#83

So I'm reluctant to post this but here we go.. In this case it is most probably high competence. Coming out of WW2 it wasn't difficult to take national security extremely serious. I thought that there wasn't much to the crash(es) near Corona in 1947 but the witness testimonies are just very very convincing, I actually changed my mind after reading up on the subject recently (before I would have said I don't know anyt…

Apparently, there was a cover-up, but not of an alien spaceship:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Mogul

Re: UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly high or low

#84

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_phenomenon What is crazy is that if the people in this movie are not lying, then every person on earth should be trying to solve this mystery. It would take crazy technology and time for anything to travel from another galaxy and be able to handle this environment without slowly studying and incorporating our DNA into theirs over a period of time.(60 years is nothing when you thin…

I'm with you on this. What I think is crazy tho is how ready and willing many people are to discount, absolutely discount and say, "well that is crazy" the experiences of so many people, who open themselves to ridicule and share some weird thing that happened. And these people are prepared to judge, discount, minimize and dismiss, these other human beings, because....it didn't personally happen to the person judging?

That seems incredibly ungenerous, and low empathy. Even for regular human behavior. So, why, in this case?

There's even more respect, in the main, between people of different religious faiths.

So why? Because some big "Authority Agency with Capital A" has not come out and told everyone, "It's OK, it's OK for you to think this is true now, because we can tell you, we checked, and it's True." Is it really driven by fear of stigma and lack of endorsement by authority? Are we really all living in the Earth-centric, pre-Galileo, dark ages?

The sad, and I think the crazy, thing is, yes, to some extent we are still living in that time, with regard to human mindset and the manipulability of people in large groups via narratives and authority. Even in this age, with all our progress, all our tech, all our ideas and discussions and connectedness.

Like why are we trusting all these theorists and commentators over the people who say they have experience?

A striking parallel I think is with the Time's Up / Me Too movement. It strikes me that we as a society, used to, and in many ways still do, treat survivor's of abuse, domestic and sexual violence as "crazy UFO nuts", who no matter how many come forward, often at great personal cost, to share their stories, and to try to establish some equality, healing and justice. Despite this, and despite the obvious reality that (Ca) there must be some reality behind all these stories and (Cb) not all of these people are simply delusional or making things up, people are so ready and willing to just discount them, and to listen to all the theorists and commentators discounting their experiences.

What I wonder is, how can we as a society do that, and how can the people who judge them do that, when we, and those people judging them, have no idea either way, but are ready to do so, to these other human beings who may be at one of their most vulnerable times. Even when multiple people corroborate their stories.

So while it's a different set of stories, our reaction, and lack of consideration for these brave people, is strikingly similar. To me at least. Maybe now's ripe for a Time's Up or Me Too movement for people who's stories of UFO encounters and ET contact have been dismissed, minimized, discounted and ridiculed for too long. No?

The other thing I think is crazy, is how so many of us are prepared to dig in a position on this topic where none of has really has any idea what's going on. Stake out a tiny circle of our own certainty and say, "Now, here is the truth. All those who doubt me, are clearly nuts." Why does this topic trigger such idiotic, low-empathy and crazy behavior from otherwise extremely logical, balanced and productive individuals?

Re: UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly high or low

#85

So I'm reluctant to post this but here we go.. In this case it is most probably high competence. Coming out of WW2 it wasn't difficult to take national security extremely serious. I thought that there wasn't much to the crash(es) near Corona in 1947 but the witness testimonies are just very very convincing, I actually changed my mind after reading up on the subject recently (before I would have said I don't know anyt…

The speed of light essentially prohibits space travel. The fastest possible speed for any material object to travel at is incredibly slow compared to any meaningful distance. It is millenia just from the sun to the edge of our solar system, let alone to anything "near by". The universe is not the kind of place where living things can travel "between worlds". This is scifi -- and it is no coincidence UFO sightings pea…

You seem to ignore Von nuaman (sp) probes, generation ships, non carbon based life. And that’s before we consider that our understanding of physics may not be complete.

Re: UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly high or low

#86
post #55

The discussion is basically answered by this short picture: https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1374167754404630528 Not only has the quality of cameras increased increadibly in the last decades, especially thanks to modern digital cameras, but in the last 10 years, most of us are carrying a quite good camera in their pocket all of the time. This would easily allow for documenting any strange phenomena. And that this…

Any phenomenon which decreases in rate proportional to our ability to measure it is very unlikely to exist.

This reasoning applies to all historical mumbojumbo: ufos, bigfoot, ghosts, etc. These ideas are plausible insofar as they are constructed to be almost unmeasurable.

The preponderance of camera phones today means we have 1bn+ people able to measure their environment at abitary frequencies, and all such phenomena have essentially disappeared.

Either somehow all ghosts, bigfoots, aliens, etc. are disappearing because we are measuring them; or they never existed.

NB. These ideas "go together" only socially, ie. believed by a secular-religious community. The objects they describe have no intrinsic relationship (bigfoot is not like a ghost). When you have a class of such ideas, it is likely they are wholesale false (ie. mythological).

It is possible to somewhat statistically predict P(IdeaSet is Mythological) by the degree to which each idea in the set is in a common domain with the other ideas. A conspiracy/mythology is an IdeaSet which is mostly disjoint.

Re: UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly high or low

#87

So I'm reluctant to post this but here we go.. In this case it is most probably high competence. Coming out of WW2 it wasn't difficult to take national security extremely serious. I thought that there wasn't much to the crash(es) near Corona in 1947 but the witness testimonies are just very very convincing, I actually changed my mind after reading up on the subject recently (before I would have said I don't know anyt…

The speed of light essentially prohibits space travel. The fastest possible speed for any material object to travel at is incredibly slow compared to any meaningful distance. It is millenia just from the sun to the edge of our solar system, let alone to anything "near by". The universe is not the kind of place where living things can travel "between worlds". This is scifi -- and it is no coincidence UFO sightings pea…

Humans only discovered the utility of carbon-based energy stores(oil) a couple hundred years ago, and already we've landed on the moon, harnessed nuclear fuel for various purposes, and purposefully fixed nitrogen en masse to allow our population to explode. We only recently connected several billion people on a common communication platform(internet) and discovered how to modify our genetic code in any arbitrary way we want.

Do you honestly think that our current limitations will be the limitations of our species going forward? Imagine a species that has been undergoing such technological advancement for 10,000 years(a geologic blink of an eye) instead of 200. Even if we are fundamentally limited by the speed of light, stasis technologies and resistance to radiation exposure could be developed that make interstellar travel possible. Our closest star is only a few lightyears away.

Re: UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly high or low

#88
post #7

UFOs exist. Alien spaceships do not. Occam's Razor. Also, having the technology to fly light years through interstellar space, means that you should surely be able to construct a craft that doesn't crash on Earth (Roswell), or waste your time flying for years to dip into the atmosphere, do a little light show and fly off, or harassing a farmer in the middle of nowhere vs landing in Central Park. The gimbal video and…

Occam's Razor is a heuristic. It does not determine what is real or not. According to your usage of the Occam's Razor, relativity and quantum mechanics would be invalid because classic mechanics is much simpler. That's not how science works.

Re: UFOs shows government competence as either surprisingly high or low

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> UFO stuff seems mostly driven by the west This is what smells the most, to me. Why are almost all the sightings we hear about in the US? You'd expect them to be evenly distributed.

Probably because you speak English and don’t engage in communities that aren’t in English.

I'm Greek and live in Greece, I don't know of anyone here having seen an alien spaceship or anything that looks like one.
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