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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#891

Post by arp242 »

philosopher1234 wrote: post #592
arp242 wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People did equate the names list to some mass shooting of Asians though. A name like, say, "Fuk Yo" is accidentally similar to the English "Fuck you". It's kinda funny in a childish way, but I don't think that making fun of it automatically implies that they think these people are of lesser value. i.e. I don't think it's automatically racism in the first place. It's inappropriate because making fun of your customers…

>And maybe some employees who worked on that list were racist; there is no way for us to know. I like to opt for a more good-faith interpretation, which seems very uncommon these days. Racism is the air we breathe. I grew up around mostly white kids, and there is undeniably more fear amongst those kids (myself included) when interacting with black people than with white people. It seems similarly undeniable that affl…

I think this is mostly correct; although I personally wouldn't go as far to say that "racism is the air we breathe", but that's an unimportant detail.

I'm not saying there aren't problems; I just don't see the connection between something like this list and the actual problems, and I certainly don't see a good reason for some of the strong and bold claims that are made about it.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#892

Post by arp242 »

isr wrote: post #871
username90 wrote: post #665

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most Muslims aren't Arabs. As for the issue with Muslims, people actually do hate the religion more than the race. People have no issue with non-Muslim Arabs or northern Africans, they mostly dislike Muslims even white ones.

Hating people for their ethnicity, or hating people for their religion - both seem to come from the same cesspool of ignorance and impotent rage (you're angry about something else, but resign yourself to picking on another group to vent on - much easier) Why do you feel the need to justify one over the other?

The difference is that religion is something you choose, whereas ethnicity is not.

I can choose to be a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic, or any other religion. I can't choose to be black or white, or Asian or European.

Criticising people for their ethnicity is essentially always wrong. There is very little – if any – nuance that applies here.

Criticising religion is a lot more nuanced though; for example I don't think it's especially controversial to criticise Matthew 25, where Jesus says that "A woman a should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

I don't think it's especially controversial to criticise Christians who believe this either (many don't, but some do).

It gets a bit more murky if you start criticising the entire religion on the whole for containing this sort of stuff. Personally I feel that's unfair, but I don't think it's "hateful" either as it's still criticising ideas rather than people.

And it's of course bad if you start criticising people on only being adherents to a religion, without any nuance or recognition of the many different interpretations. But even then, you're still disliking people for ideas they hold and are free to choose, rather than attributes beyond their control. So while still bad, I'd consider it "less bad".

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#893

Post by [deleted] »

andrewmd5 wrote: post #887
JPKab wrote: post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea how much software I ship, but like your ideology, you make assertions without data. You act as if the only people who are killed by police are "one of my brothers and sisters". Let's unpack that, shall we? https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ Roughly 3/4 of people killed by police in the US are not one of your "brothers and sisters" if by "brothers and sisters" you are referring to humans who share you…

See, all you have to do is push people who claim to want an apolitical workspace just a little to get their real views to surface. Enjoy your sad, weird life https://andrew.im/

[deleted]

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#894

Post by tha0xa3 »

andrewmd5 wrote: post #887
JPKab wrote: post #833

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea how much software I ship, but like your ideology, you make assertions without data. You act as if the only people who are killed by police are "one of my brothers and sisters". Let's unpack that, shall we? https://mappingpoliceviolence.org/ Roughly 3/4 of people killed by police in the US are not one of your "brothers and sisters" if by "brothers and sisters" you are referring to humans who share you…

See, all you have to do is push people who claim to want an apolitical workspace just a little to get their real views to surface. Enjoy your sad, weird life https://andrew.im/

>See, all you have to do is push people who claim to want an apolitical workspace just a little to get their real views to surface.

What "real views"? He laid out a fairly neutral and convincing case for apolitical workspaces.

I can't tell if your posts are parody or not.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#895

Post by ksec »

Tainnor wrote: post #124

Honestly, in this story everyone looks like a big child. I would maybe be more sympathetic to DHH if it wasn't the guy who was so opinionated he pushed through Rails features that everyone else disliked or co-wrote several books on company culture that are glorified ads for basecamp (although "it doesn't have to be crazy at work" is still a thought-provoking read, at least in part). I can only imagine that he might b…

>These levels of tension and distrust don't just arise out of nowhere.

You may be underestimating the power of modern day PC.

I also think partly this is because being a remote company, these discussions, even with a Web Cam just dont convey the message much. Some of these message could have been in private with different colleague during coffee break or in pantry. So I felt it is also a failure or remote work. Remote doesn't work ALL the time, which is something DHH dont get. And VC are required for many businesses, which is something DHH dont get as well.

Another problem was that most of his political message, I guess you could also argue are glorified ads for Basecamp, attract the same people with similar political views. And many of them were sold into the vision, cult of whatever that might be as Basecamp. And the new policy was felt more like a betrayal of their belief. Hence the huge reaction and backlash that happened.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#896

Post by nicbou »

JPKab wrote: post #714
SantalBlush wrote: post #482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They do not accept non-racist environments, only anti-racist ones. They do not accept that businesses be politically neutral. Perhaps they are the ones working toward a politically neutral, non-racist environment, and it is you who won't accept it. In truth, I don't believe either they or you could properly identify what a politically neutral environment really looks like, and you're probably all unreliable and serv…

No you really don't get it. At my company that I was formally employed at before moving on to my current startup, we had a minority of employees very aggressively and vocally demanding that the CEO issue an anti-racism statement after the George Floyd murder. A statement was issue condemning what happened and racism. They were not satisfied with this and demanded that the exact words black lives matter be used and al…

What is the playbook for a situation like this?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#897

Post by nicbou »

SantalBlush wrote: post #757
vxNsr wrote: post #744

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you start here by assuming the OP has a nefarious plan simply bec you disagree with him politically is the entire issue. You’re willing to believe him when he says what he believes but you won’t believe for the part that you find distasteful. That’s some major mental gymnastics.

Please show me where I'm assuming a nefarious plan. Putting words in my mouth or thoughts into my my head is doing the very thing that you pretend to condemn here.

The last sentence would be my guess

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#898

Post by stuaxo »

FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #344
throwaway789256 wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This dynamic is playing out in thousands of companies and startups across the US. Many people in the US, the woke, have redefined "white supremacy" and "racism" to mean most inequalities and behavior that they don't like: They do not accept non-racist environments, only anti-racist ones. They do not accept that businesses be politically neutral. Businesses must take political stances internally and publicly. To do an…

> The irony, of course, is that Hansson and Fried built a reputation around righteousness and wokeness, and then it came for them, because they were two white guys with power. That's extremely predictable at this point.

From the little I know about it, they asked for people to look into inequality issues at work around hiring, then didn't like what was found and said nobody could talk about politics.

Sounds like they talked the talk, but when it came to walking the walk, they walked back and told everyone to be quiet.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#899

Post by isr »

arp242 wrote: post #892
isr wrote: post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hating people for their ethnicity, or hating people for their religion - both seem to come from the same cesspool of ignorance and impotent rage (you're angry about something else, but resign yourself to picking on another group to vent on - much easier) Why do you feel the need to justify one over the other?

The difference is that religion is something you choose, whereas ethnicity is not. I can choose to be a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic, or any other religion. I can't choose to be black or white, or Asian or European. Criticising people for their ethnicity is essentially always wrong. There is very little – if any – nuance that applies here. Criticising religion is a lot more nuanced though; for examp…

The comment I was responding was specifically talking about "hating" Muslims & Islam.

You're talking about criticising with arguments (using Christianity and a quote). The arguments may be bunk (taking a quote out of context - something that happens all too often amongst Islamophobes), or it may be spot on.

There's a world of difference there.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#900

Post by throwaway789256 »

comte7092 wrote: post #845
throwaway789256 wrote: post #843

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my assertions stack up pretty well with the facts. The names list hasn't been clearly established as racist. If you have 10 times the European names as you have Asian names, is it racist against Asians, or were there "funny" names in all groups? The perception of racism is not necessarily racism. That is precisely the point that is being argued. The claim of white supremacy does not mean that an organization…

Your assertion was that these people cannot accept race neutral, they’ll only accept anti racism. With that framing, the perception of whether the list was racist does matter as it explains their motivation. Because they did perceive the list to be racist, it’s just not the case that they were taking issue with the idea of being race neutral. Second, you are jumping to wild conclusions about what they were asking for…

> With that framing, the perception of whether the list was racist does matter as it explains their motivation.

I don't think we know their true motivation. Anyone can claim to perceive something as racist. We cannot control their sense of offense. The act they claim to be racist may or may not be racist.

But what advocates of critical race theory have found is that, by claiming that something is racist, they can bring pressure on their employers.

That is precisely what happened here. Basecamp is now under tremendous pressure. Plenty of ire has been focused on the co-founders as well as Singer. Singer has quit, though we don't know the facts of the case. Accusations of racism are fatal to one's career, whether or not they have a basis in fact.

Another word for "revealed pattern" is "narrative." Many narratives can be told about the same set of facts. And many of those narratives are deeply subjective, or driven by ideology.

I could take many minor actions by Jane Yang and others at Basecamp and interpret them as a power grab.

To be clear, I know that some people and companies do act in racist ways. Such behavior is illegal and should be punished. But the evidentiary bar to establish that is high. That bar has not yet been met here.

In this case, we have very serious accusations and very little evidence, evidence that can be interpreted in several ways. But Basecamp and Singer have already suffered serious consequences, and the claims have been aired publicly.

So they were able to create a scandal without going through the effort of proving anything.

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