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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#731
post #688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You tried to play the "treat people as individuals" card, followed it up with the "poor white person is gonna resent you" card, and finished off with the "I want decency" trope. Congratulations, you hit the white supremacy apologia trifecta. You could have scored bonus points if you had also included "not all white people" in your reply. Did it ever occur to you that the reason that we have civil rights movements in…

Sigh; discussing these things always seems to lead to this. Could you be any more smug, condensing, and patronizing? But yeah, I'm a racist "white supremacy apologist". Sigh. Do you not realize how massively toxic you're being here? For all your talk about "diversity" and "inclusivity" ya'll seem very quick to exclude people. > You could have scored bonus points if you had also included "not all white people" in your…

I didn't say you were racist. I said you used every braindead trick in the book that racists employ to pretend that we're dealing with hurt feelings instead of a real problem.

Not surprising that you're pretending to be above the fray when you're stuck right in the thick of it without the awareness to actually figure out where you are.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#732
post #669

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Black is an overloaded term. It’s a race and an ethnicity. If you were to write about black people in Africa, it would be nonsensical to capitalize it because black doesn’t communicate any shared identity in that context. The right granularity is national, ethnic, or tribal. But Black is a cultural identity in the context of the United States. Blacks, or African-Americans, are ethnically distinct and have shared hist…

I disagree fundamentally with your take because I approach this subject academically instead of in pop culture terms. Both blacks and whites have distinct ethnic groups that are more granular. Just as whites are ethnically English, Irish, German, Scandinavian, Italian, etc., blacks are ethnically Akan, Cuban, Caribbean, Abyssian, Fulani, Zulu, Oromo, and more.

Let’s bring in an academic to this discussion. Someone already linked the AP guidelines, but I’ll quote an actual professor with a background in this kind of stuff.

Here’s quote from an article written by John McWhorter, a prominent Black conservative who happens to be a professor of English and linguistics at Stanford the subject[1]:

“But what about the black business districts that thrived across the country after slavery was abolished? What about Frederick Douglass, Ida B. Wells, W.E.B. Du Bois, Gwendolyn Brooks, Richard Wright and Thurgood Marshall, none born in Africa and all deeply American people? And while we're on Marshall, what about the civil rights revolution, a moral awakening that we gave to ourselves and the nation.”

“My roots trace back to working-class Black people - Americans, not foreigners - and I'm proud of it. I am John Hamilton McWhorter the Fifth. Four men with my name and appearance, doing their best in a segregated America, came before me. They and their dearest are the heritage that I can feel in my heart, and they knew the sidewalks of Philadelphia and Atlanta, not Sierra Leone.”

“So, we will have a name for ourselves - and it should be Black. "Colored" and "Negro" had their good points but carry a whiff of Plessy vs. Ferguson and Bull Connor about them, so we will let them lie. "Black" isn't perfect, but no term is.”

Are you better qualified to say whether Black should or shouldn’t be capitalized than a Black English and linguistics professor at Stanford? Is your take more academic than his? And if so on what basis? Because it doesn’t seem to be based context or history or what Black people call or have called themselves.

My claim and one his claims is simple: there is a culturally distinct group within America that is called African-American and Black and that the B should be capitalized. Whether The better is Black or African-American is up for debate but only within the African-American community. It’s our right to determine what the proper term is. In the meantime, the consensus is that you should capitalize the B in Black when referring to black Americans who descended from black slaves in America.

[1] https://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/why-im-black-not-af...

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#733
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s coded language.

Pointing out that cancel culture is toxic and that free speech still has a place in polite isn't a bad thing. Academia really has a problem with siloing those of a different opinion and apparently it is extending to tech companies as well. I mostly just refuse to talk about that stuff at work. If it's not work related or "guess what I did last weekend" I'm not really interested.

I didn't say that and it is intriguing that people took it that way.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#734

I'm among those with mixed feelings. - list of funny names that is kept in some persistent form and circulates the company with full acknowledgment of the head people: Childish and extremely unprofessional, but still a typical mistake rather than a colossal disaster; - politics and racism issue: looks like typical misunderstanding but on a very fragile subjects. Very easy to get into drama scenarios with this mix. Ve…

You’re missing a crucial bit that changes everything: one of the earliest employees is ostensibly a very, very right leaning person who made super questionable comments unprompted in the townhall, and refused to acknowledge racism as a concept could exist in companies. And one of the founders just couldn’t say anything that would have helped in that moment.

I'm a pretty left leaning person and I mostly agree with the things he's quoted as saying in this article.

I hugely disagree with the way that white supremacism has had it's definition widened within certain circles and how those circles are now attempting to push that definition into wider usage through the type of bullying that's on display in this very article.

For most people white supremacism conjures up images of nazi germany, the slave trade, jim crow, lynchings, the kkk, etc. Our society today does not resemble those in such a way that we should begin using that word to mean something totally different. It feels like an awful rhetorical trick where the emotional resonance of the older meaning of the word is felt by everyone each time it's used while meaning something far more subtle. We're dealing with something far more complicated today, and no number of performative denouncements will help us solve our problems.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#735
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://newdiscourses.com/2021/01/what-is-critical-race-theo...

Here’s a far less biased overview: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_r...

yeah but if we take a summary with a bias its easier to validate our opinions.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#736
post #727

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you approached the subject academically, you’d have an informed take on it.

My take is informed. Which one of those ethnicities do you believe I made up? Those are real people and real ethnic categories.

So Blacks aren’t a “real people”? Is your actual argument that African-Americans don’t exist as a distinct ethnic group? If that’s your argument you should say so.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#737
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is of course the worst take. When I was in 4th grade we had to read a short story about a society that enforced sameness, it wasn’t the giver where they did it genetically, rather if you were smart they’d fix headphones to your ears that played a loud obnoxious noise so you couldn’t think, if you were tall or athletic they crippled you, basically they brought everyone down to the same bad level... That’s the soc…

I am on the other side of this debate, and I have plenty of downvotes from my comments in this thread without counter arguments. That's HN in a nutshell. My advice to you is to get over it.

I’m not complaining about the downvotes, but I’d like to understand what the disagreement is. I’m sorry that people do that. I generally will respond if I disagree instead of downvoting. I’ll take a look at your comment history and see if I have time to address it.

ETA: I’ve looked over your comments, aside from one that appears to be sarcastic everything you say has a response to it. I added my own comment to one of them as well. I think resigning ourselves to Twitter-like flame wars without actually talking things out isn’t very hn like at all.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#738

I'm among those with mixed feelings. - list of funny names that is kept in some persistent form and circulates the company with full acknowledgment of the head people: Childish and extremely unprofessional, but still a typical mistake rather than a colossal disaster; - politics and racism issue: looks like typical misunderstanding but on a very fragile subjects. Very easy to get into drama scenarios with this mix. Ve…

You’re missing a crucial bit that changes everything: one of the earliest employees is ostensibly a very, very right leaning person who made super questionable comments unprompted in the townhall, and refused to acknowledge racism as a concept could exist in companies. And one of the founders just couldn’t say anything that would have helped in that moment.

I’m extremely leftist - have organized for unions for 5 years. I didn’t see what he said that needed denouncement from the boss or something. Maybe a better phrased “thank you for your point of view” than “thank you” if you really wanna be political.

Like I don’t agree with him. And I do see how a funny names list is a form of “violence” in a way. I also think Singer is a tad misleading.

But he’s just like, wrong. You can have a discussion or a disagreement on this topic. The way this has all been escalated and framed as “you’re not taking a stand against white supremacy” makes my head spin.

Again, I’m a staunch leftist. I agree with a lot of the arguments made, but the way they are being made and the expectations on the employer are very confusing to me.

A lot of comments have said childish and I agree. Everyone looks like a horribly communicative child in this story, and it’s really uncomfortable to watch.

I in no way see how his comments were “very questionable”. I disagree with them? But I just like think they’re wrong.

“Very questionable” is going off on a tangent about (((globalists))) and a worldwide conspiracy network. This is a very uncomfortable shift of the Overton window for me.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#739

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are correct activists use this undeclared redefinition of the term white supremacy to mean "someone that does not have a social justice activist mindset". Which is exactly the issue. Why? It is a tool to utilize confusion to remove the targets moral authority. Both yes and no are bad answers that make you loose moral authority, which is the point of the power tool. Never trust anyone that uses such a tool, as it…

… you’re literally doing the same thing you’re accusing them of. Creating an arbitrary binary and than applying moral judgment to it.

Do you have a counter argument? Do you think such a person should be trusted or do you think this is not how the activism works?

If it’s about my comment on trust: You are welcome to trust someone that use these power tactics based upon lies to undermine the moral authority of viewpoint opponents, I just believe there are so many people of better character out there to build a relationship with.

Social justice tactics when it boils down to it are effective, but not very creative. Domain specific language is coopted and it’s definitions changed to mean what’s useful for activism. Goal is to redirect as much as possible of an organizations resources and attention towards the ideology instead of whatever it used to do.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#740
post #711
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is of course the worst take. When I was in 4th grade we had to read a short story about a society that enforced sameness, it wasn’t the giver where they did it genetically, rather if you were smart they’d fix headphones to your ears that played a loud obnoxious noise so you couldn’t think, if you were tall or athletic they crippled you, basically they brought everyone down to the same bad level... That’s the soc…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113264/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

Sounds about right.
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