On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#911

Post by BeFlatXIII » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #684

nicoburns wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the best explanation that I've heard for the feeling men have of basic unhappiness without romance and sex is toxic masculinity; the general societal rejection of deep emotional relationships between straight men. Lonely? Make strong friendships! Spend your time with other men who like you and enjoy your company and validate you I'm not sure I buy this. I'm a man who has lots of close friendships (many of which are…

Not the parent, but I don't think friends are a substitute for a romantic relationship, but having friends is certainly better and more comforting when you're not in a relationship rather than being truly alone. Regardless, men in romantic relationships should still be sure to cultivate strong friendships

> men in romantic relationships should still cultivate strong friendships

This is often of critical importance for making the romantic relationship last. Your wife should not be your only close friend.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#912

Post by silicon2401 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

newsat13 wrote: post #454

silicon2401 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Way to dogpile on people when they're down. > They're just jealous you can travel and play video games whenever you want. =) This comment comes off defensive and hypocritical to me, rather than contributing to the conversation. You're basically saying we shouldn't talk about good things if some people don't have those good things; and also screw people with good things because they're actually jealous of the have-n…

This comment sounds so dismissive. And yet the first thing noted as benefits of a relationship is "cheaper". That's truly sad.

Do you think it's sad if a couple has shared values and enjoys living those values together?. My partner and I are both very frugal, hoping to be able to retire early. We constantly celebrate how frugally we're able to live because we're together. Everything is half-off: housing, cars, groceries, travel, electronics. We each research different ways to save on bills, support each other to cut down on costs, research different aspects of saving and investing. You may not value frugality, but the cost savings of being in a relationship is undeniable and great for people who do value it.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#913

Post by TheCapeGreek » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #613

jlokier wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The context is Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which is not only about physical needs. Physical is just the basics, at the bottom.

I reacted to this: "... sex appeared on it TWICE. Once on the bottom level as a basic physical need ..."

There is a physical aspect however - libidos don't exist purely in your head. Hormones have effects.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#914

Post by BeFlatXIII » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

thelean12 wrote: post #327

tachyonbeam wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one bitter truth about life: (almost) everyone needs some amount of physical intimacy to be happy, but it's not something anyone is entitled to. Those of us who have access to that are privileged. I agree with the author though. IMO the existence of so many "incels" is some expression of a real societal problem. Many young men are suffering, and we don't acknowledge their suffering as genuine. We just tell the…

> if you can't get women, it's entirely your fault I'm curious, and this will probably be too curt but I am honestly trying to figure it out: Whose fault is it? Because incels believe it's the women's fault, and this message is the opposite. It doesn't seem productive to tell them that it's society's fault or some other external thing. What are they supposed to do about that? Most men that I know, including myself, f…

> Lose weight, hit the gym, learn to lower my ego, listen better, practice small talk, learn about fashion, etc.

This is a bit of a fresh thought to me, but it seems that the standard male self-improvement advice ends up in one of three buckets:

1. The activity is its own reward (lose weight, hit the gym). Even if it’s not immediately successful at helping one find a partner, their benefits are almost immediately self-evident.

2. Advice that is vital for sustaining a relationship but usually not the missing piece when it’s time to find a new one (listen better, lower the ego). They’re needed to get the second date but can’t help get the first date.

3. Advice for the sake of having given advice (read books by female authors).

“Learn fashion” is hard to place on here. On the one hand, ensuring that you comb the crumbs out of your beard daily and wear clothes that fit better than a garbage bag is essential. On the other, becoming “into fashion” when it’s not a natural interest is often more of advice for advice’s sake unless you’re targeting a very fashion-conscious woman (or the fashion-forward portion of the gay dating pool).

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#915

Post by phkahler » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #633

ngngngng wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is a good thought. My own religion gave me some direction for how to become to type of man women want, but it did leave something to be desired. And then upon searching for this sort of direction later in life while trying to improve my own relationships I stumbled upon the "red pill" communities. There's a lot of nuance to these communities as well. They tell men that you can become the type of man that…

I think there's room for some down to earth, responsible men to try and fill this space. Right now the "teach young men how to be" space is mostly filled with misogyny and terrible pick up artists. Goodness yes. The PUA and red pill communities have absolutely poisoned this space and, at least in America, it's impossible to see how a healthy alternative could even take root. I know that if one sprang up, my first rea…

>> The PUA and red pill communities have absolutely poisoned this space

I think the PUA has poisoned the space. TRP concepts I find quite good taken as a whole, but a lot of guys are focused on the wrong things for the wrong reasons. At its core, TRP says to put yourself together and everything else will follow, but the everything else is NOT suppose to be your goal. Some of the ideas there like AWALT are toxic when taken literally (as many do) but the point is that as human animals everyone has the potential to be or do certain things. Same for many of the other tenets of it. As one guy said, TRP is a map but not the territory.

But I agree a lot of folks miss the big picture of TRP and get lost. Much like reading NMMNG sometimes produces narcissistic a-holes instead of better people.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#916

Post by phkahler » Wed, May 05, 2021, 1:58 PM UTC

betwixthewires wrote: post #583

phkahler wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> But there is a way to improve supply: give dignity to prostitution. Better yet, guys need to learn to be the kind of man women want to fvck. They're not obligated and attraction is non-negotiable. Reality can be harsh. Guys need to treat themselves with dignity and put themselves together.

Did you even read the article? We are discussing this topic from a sympathetic standpoint. Sure, the idea of "destigmatize prostitution" is an over simplified magic bullet, but so is your response. And their point would probably do more towards alleviating the problem than yours honestly. You're basically saying "want to solve the problem? That's easy: solve the problem." Different people want different things. Prost…

Did you even read my comment? I ended with "Guys need to treat themselves with dignity and put themselves together."

I don't think that includes paying for sex.

Also to your comment "Different people want different things. Prostitutes want money." That's not what prostitutes want, it's what they need from a practical point of view. When you're just trying to get by, you do things you don't want to do in order to get what you need. Now the higher end ones that make big money probably don't need it, but I don't claim to know what their motivations are.

"The problem we are discussing is that some people aren't desirable for some reason they don't know how to do something about."

That we can agree on. My point with the crude comment is to alert them to that fact. Most people don't want to change and will reject the idea that they need to. You gotta smack em with the idea pretty hard sometimes.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#917

Post by dqpb » Wed, May 05, 2021, 2:00 PM UTC

dTal wrote: post #890

dqpb wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's as absurd as saying the need for food justifies armed robbery Before considering lofty philosophical ideas like "Justification", it's useful to consider basic system dynamics: "This paper provides an overview of the link between food insecurity and violent conflict, addressing both traditional and emerging threats to security and political stability." https://www.wfp.org/publications/occasional-paper-24-food…

>Before considering lofty philosophical ideas like "Justification" But... that was the whole topic. We're not talking about whether hunger causes violence, or whether sexual frustration causes rape. No doubt they do. The point was that labeling "food" as an essential need doesn't constitute an endorsement of food-related violence, and by analogy labeling sex as essential doesn't constitute an endorsement of rape.

The parent did say “I suspect the real issue is that it offered an explanation (not a justification)”, which is close to the point I was making.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#918

Post by phkahler » Wed, May 05, 2021, 2:03 PM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #613

jlokier wrote: post #529

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The context is Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which is not only about physical needs. Physical is just the basics, at the bottom.

I reacted to this: "... sex appeared on it TWICE. Once on the bottom level as a basic physical need ..."

Reproduction is in fact a biological imperative - your gene line will die without it. People don't eat food because they know they'll die if they don't, they eat because they're hungry. Biology tells the animal what it needs to do. There is a natural drive even if it's not technically a requirement for the individual animal (human) to survive in the environment.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#919

Post by decafninja » Wed, May 05, 2021, 2:09 PM UTC

bloak wrote: post #316

twobitshifter wrote: post #136

The average man will go through a period of involuntary celibacy and I don’t believe this is a new thing but we’re now good at labeling. History shows that 80% of women reproduced compared to only 40% of men! https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2012... (Note not sure the primary source on this stat, but the general idea is that polygamy was once common leading to fewer men reproducing) We’re doing…

"History shows that 80% of women reproduced compared to only 40% of men!" That doesn't necessarily imply polygamy, and it doesn't necessarily imply "incels". Imagine a society in which women get married at age 16 and typically die during childbirth before they reach the age of 32, and men get married at age 32, if they live that long, which most of them don't, and then get married again when the first wife dies durin…

War is probably a big factor too. I don't know what the average or minimum age of all those soldiers standing in the lines of medieval battlefields all the way to say, the Civil War era, but I imagine quite a few were virgins and casualties were brutal.

Off topic, but such archaic means of warfare still confound me. Imagine being some 16 year old kid standing in the front line facing charging armored knights in the Middle Ages. Or staring across from another line of musket/riflemen and being expected to eat a volley of musket balls while standing straight and unmoving.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#920

Post by AmIDev » Wed, May 05, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

I don't understand if this post is exclusively about people who think that others are responsible for them not having sex, or about all those who don't get sex.

I come in the latter category, and I don't think anyone needs to sympathize with me. The reason for me never having being in a relationship is exclusively due to issues with me, some that I have/had control over, like weight, grooming, and some that I have little/no control over, like looks, mental issues, height.

It would however be nice if people didn't ridicule/look down upon lonely men, and if society wouldn't assign value to a man solely based on what he can provide to his family.