On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#891

Post by kaba0 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 9:54 AM UTC

ianai wrote: post #673

waterhouse wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> create a feedback loop amongst themselves that results in literally mass murder. I dispute that causation. Mass murderers are extreme outliers that usually have identifiable mental problems, and I would say the primary cause of their behavior is those mental problems, not whatever particular thing they say triggered them. Also, even if you did show that a certain ideological group was significantly overrepresented…

I think the internet can act like an insulating force and for certain people a viscous feedback loop. Like it’s far more easy for certain types of personalities to call themselves “incel” and whine about it on the internet than get out of their bubble and talk to people. The insularly force is clearly amplifying other communities so this is probably “just another” instantiation of the same effect. Edit-I don’t know t…

As for a “solution”: I think social media should focus on instead of creating echo bubbles to connect distinct groups. Even in in-person, it is unhealthy to surround ourselves with same-minded people, and one should strive diverse circles in terms of opinion/background.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#892

Post by amanaplanacanal » Wed, May 05, 2021, 9:57 AM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #838

xiphias2 wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why haven’t these been tested? They were tested and perfected a hundred thousand years ago when humans were living in tribes. In a tribe shaming people for being polygamous was part of the system to keep some checks and balances. With people moving to cities and dating online, those checks and balances are suppressed, and the market balance shifted towards polygamy (few high value man date many women).

I haven’t studied the anthropology, but is it true that people in tribal societies tend to be monogamous?

My thought is that enforced monogamy came with the invention of agriculture, and wasn’t really a thing in Hunter-gatherer societies, but I could be completely wrong about that.

If true though, the fact that most of us don’t work in agriculture any more could mean that we are in the midst of a sea change in relationships. I’m too old to say I’ll be around to see how it ends up, but some of the youngest here might be around to see it.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#893

Post by kaba0 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 9:58 AM UTC

TameAntelope wrote: post #686

belorn wrote: post #661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of a case here in Sweden where a father was found guilty of attempted murder of his half year old child. Just hours before the attempt he had been at the hospital begging to be committed since he was hearing voices and he was scared that he might hurt someone, but the beds was full so he was sent home. Healthcare for mental health is still very much underdeveloped, especially when the patient is male. It i…

I think that's an extremely interesting take -- that with the advent of the Internet, we've created a vehicle for mental illness to metastasize, and the only real solution is to treat mental illness like we treat malaria or even COVID, and upgrade our global healthcare systems to handle the influx of this "new" disease variant. The analogy breaks down when you start to try and think of what our "vaccine" might be, th…

Except that it doesn’t spread that way? And that it had always been around. We have just started paying attention to it.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#894

Post by brailsafe » Wed, May 05, 2021, 10:01 AM UTC

insickness wrote: post #260

colanderman wrote: post #154

I feel a common issue with such "dead bedroom" discussions is the seeming lack of capacity of some parties (including some prominent toplevel comments here) to understand how deep a need for sex many people have. To think sex can be replaced with "strong friendships" is laughable to anyone who actually feels a strong desire for sex. The dead bedroom situations I've seen with my friends (M->F equally as well as F->M)…

> dead bedroom situations are always the result of one party being incapable of understanding the other's desire for sex. Couldn't disagree more. Sexual attraction is not about 'understanding' how your partner feels. A man who is no longer attracted to his wife won't suddenly become attracted when he understands how she feels. Attraction is not a choice. It's not something you can talk yourself or someone else into.

I agree that attraction is not a choice, but being attractive to anyone can have facets of choice. If the husband in this case isn't attracted to his wife anymore because she's gained a lot of weight, the choice by either party to remedy that could influence increased attraction, for example.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#895

Post by kaba0 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 10:02 AM UTC

ransElectronics wrote: post #883

twobitshifter wrote: post #136

The average man will go through a period of involuntary celibacy and I don’t believe this is a new thing but we’re now good at labeling. History shows that 80% of women reproduced compared to only 40% of men! https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2012... (Note not sure the primary source on this stat, but the general idea is that polygamy was once common leading to fewer men reproducing) We’re doing…

> I don’t think we would ever want to go back to those repressive systems that controlled women. Why not?

You made me really angry with this comment.. really do hope you are “joking”, but I’m not sure at all based on this thread.

> > I don’t think we would ever want to go back to those repressive systems that controlled women. > Why not?

Because they are human?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#896

Post by brailsafe » Wed, May 05, 2021, 10:06 AM UTC

colanderman wrote: post #293

insickness wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> dead bedroom situations are always the result of one party being incapable of understanding the other's desire for sex. Couldn't disagree more. Sexual attraction is not about 'understanding' how your partner feels. A man who is no longer attracted to his wife won't suddenly become attracted when he understands how she feels. Attraction is not a choice. It's not something you can talk yourself or someone else into.

I don't think I implied that it was. But someone in an exclusive relationship who no longer is willing to fulfill one of their partner's basic needs, has an obligation to work with their partner to find a way to fulfill that need. Otherwise you are just denying them something they are incapable of not needing.

Maybe, but you'd need to be able to identify first that you were filling a need and that you're no longer. To have a conversation about that, the person in question needs to know that their partner is filling their need rather than some degree of it being optional.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#897

Post by amanaplanacanal » Wed, May 05, 2021, 10:15 AM UTC

letonmorri wrote: post #716

standardUser wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This would imply that the "bottom" 80% of men are not finding partners. When we look around at the world, either anecdotally or statistically, do we see 80% of men without partners? Not even close.

It seems about right if you are talking about dating apps. - https://techcrunch.com/2009/11/18/okcupid-inbox-attractive/ - https://quillette.com/2019/03/12/attraction-inequality-and-t...

I would suggest that just as we shouldn’t consider Twitter or Facebook as representative of the real world, the same should be applied to dating apps.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#898

Post by dandare » Wed, May 05, 2021, 10:15 AM UTC

old_fart_dev wrote: post #793

dandare wrote: post #694

Remark 1: To my knowledge, it is not uncommon that men switch genders when sharing their stories on reddit simply to get more empathic reception as opposed to some "men up" rebuttal. I did that after a therapist told me a man can not be abused by woman, I wanted to see if I am really emotionally abused or just crazy. It was very helpful. Remark 2: I vividly remember those gnawing feelings of sexual and romantic unful…

On remark 2 - I think these feelings of unfulfillment are very common among young men (and women I imagine), but at that age, it's hard to find an audience of peers mature enough to discuss these feelings without falling into stereotypes and tropes (e.g. "bro" advice). On remark 3 - These are political debates, not conversations. There's no amount of data or statistics you can throw into the conversation that's going…

remark 3 - I am not trying to convince anyone, I am trying to form an opinion.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#899

Post by torben-friis » Wed, May 05, 2021, 10:31 AM UTC

chdaniel wrote: post #153

torben-friis wrote: post #2

>I can choose to pity or hate him, but having chosen I can’t pretend the choice didn’t exist; it’s something I had to do. I've had to face similar situations in my family life, and this part really resonated with me. It's an extremely eloquent way of capturing something I've never been able to put into words. Thank you for that.

I didn't really understand that part. Mind re-wording it in an easier manner for me?

When you have to make hard choices in life (staying with a partner, maintaining a relationship with a toxic family member, supporting a friend that's behaving in a way you don't approve), it's easy to be on the fence since you will have arguments for and against the decision.

However, once we choose, we tend to incorporate that choice into our narrative as the solution that makes sense, and reinforce it to the point that we end up forgetting there was once an alternative. "I left my wife, it was miserable, I'm so glad I left", etc.

It is good to not forget that there was once a choice to make, the choice wasn't easy, and there were arguments in the other side that could have won.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#900

Post by torben-friis » Wed, May 05, 2021, 10:38 AM UTC

commandlinefan wrote: post #226

torben-friis wrote: post #2

>I can choose to pity or hate him, but having chosen I can’t pretend the choice didn’t exist; it’s something I had to do. I've had to face similar situations in my family life, and this part really resonated with me. It's an extremely eloquent way of capturing something I've never been able to put into words. Thank you for that.

I'm really worried for my teenage son. Dating was brutal when I was doing it 20 years ago, and as far as I can tell, it's gotten so, so much worse since. Modern dating can't literally be "winner take all", but it sure looks like it's getting close.

I don't think it's that bad. Being the chosen one is harder, but making connections is way easier.

I am part of the generation that went through the change and saw both "systems", and I personally much prefer the current one - at least you never reach a dead end like you did when you depended on friends of friends to meet news people. It just requires you to be more proactive.