On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#831

Post by 1_person » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:31 AM UTC

GavinMcG wrote: post #605

giantg2 wrote: post #509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw the gatekeeper comment as being more related to the natural processes of diamorphic species. Take for example your statement below. This very much implies a "gate" and that women are making choices to keep that gate closed for some men. Just because a person is not entitled to what is behind that gate, doesn't make that gate less real. If anything, it enforces the analogy in the fact that gates do exist in real…

The proof is that men aren't described as gatekeepers, even though just like women, they choose to have sex with certain people, and not with others. The "gate" you're talking about uncontroversially belongs to each individual in the form of their bodily autonomy. Yet women are uniquely cast as "keeping out" certain people. That's not a matter of dimorphism: that's a matter of mens' bodily autonomy being assumed, and…

It's interesting that the concept of bodily autonomy doesn't extend to the male not wanting his body to engage in a lifetime of forced labor when the female's bodily autonomy extends to carrying an irrational pregnancy to term, though, isn't it?

One might even go to say that there are very real systemic and social inequities which have nothing at all to do with your rape fixation...

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#832

Post by cjaybo » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #367

tengbretson wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's start with the assumption that we will have to solve this problem while under the constraints of actual reality.

Are you saying that massive economic inequality is a-OK...? These are all big problems we ain't gonna fix in 5 years or 10.

It's clear that they were pointing out exactly what you're getting at in your second sentence: any solution that that depends on solving global income inequality is practically impossible over any reasonable timeline, and therefore not worth much discussion.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#833

Post by 1_person » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:47 AM UTC

GavinMcG wrote: post #781

zajio1am wrote: post #748

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gatekeeping is relevant only when there is scarcity. If there is a pair of people (A, B) where A's desire for sex is three times bigger than B's, then although both A and B have full bodily autonomy (that nobody disputes), in practice only B would be a gatekeeper, as sex for A is scarce, while sex for B is plentiful (relative to their desires). The same argument could be generalized to society. If one gender has on a…

Exactly, which gets back to the actual underlying dynamic: the accusation of gatekeeping only makes sense on a societal level, not an individual one, and can only be turned into an equality issue if one (silently) shifts back to the perspective of an individual who believes they are entitled to an equal amount of sex.

So, to be clear, you believe it is axiomatic that one must internalize rape-desire to observe or discuss obvious consequences of sexual reproduction under selective pressure?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#834

Post by throway98752343 » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:50 AM UTC

a_puppy wrote: post #510

I'm a guy who has, for my entire life, struggled to form romantic relationships. For a long time, I also struggled to form friendships. So I've spent quite a bit of time thinking about this, and here are my thoughts: The term "incel" is used to mean two wildly different things: - One meaning is "an incel is someone who's single and complains about it". Statistically, a few percent of 30-year-old men are virgins. Some…

Excellent points, I completely agree.

As long as social skills matter, they will be the more serious barrier over things like exercise, grooming/hygiene and other self improvement fixes because those can be improved on your own while practicing social skills takes willing partners. If it's bad enough, you're in a chicken and egg situation. There are ways out of it like rejection challenges but that's really painful.

"we should be kinder and more sensitive to socially awkward men when they try to make friends, or ask women on dates" Again I agree, this would help so much. But I get that many women are not in a place where they feel comfortable doing this yet. "I do think people should make an effort to reject socially awkward folks without traumatizing them!" Saying no is a skill that many of us are very bad at, especially doing it gently and unambiguously.

Social skills is one area where society can help, by encouraging more in-person role models, mentors, and conversation partners (men AND women) to give young people these skills. Maybe better fictional role models too.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#835

Post by spoonjim » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:52 AM UTC

alcover wrote: post #542

spoonjim wrote: post #140

Essentially, what we have right now in the sexual marketplace echoes what we have in the economy... a lot of the sex is being had by a small fraction of the people. The need for sex is perhaps as high as the need for money but nobody talks about this crushing inequality, perhaps because there is no practical way to “tax and redistribute” sex. The problem is worse for men since a man needs a certain set of skills and…

“It's a fact...that in societies like ours sex truly represents a second system of differentiation, completely independent of money; and as a system of differentiation it functions just as mercilessly. The effects of these two systems are, furthermore, strictly equivalent. Just like unrestrained economic liberalism, and for similar reasons, sexual liberalism produces phenomena of absolute pauperization . Some men mak…

Love seeing a better thinker and writer state my opinion so much better.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#836

Post by spoonjim » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:55 AM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #799

letonmorri wrote: post #730

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your idea doesn't make sense since women report higher sexual partners than men in ALL age groups in the figure you linked,

No they don't. In every age group there's more men than women in the 2 and >3 partners categories, while women are visibly ahead in the 1 partner category. Based purely on that figure, we can reasonably say that after age 18-24 men and women are about as likely to have had sex with at least one person in the last year (within the error bars of each other), with men being more likely to have had sex with more than one…

Right, but if the 18-24 women are having sex with older men and the numbers in the older group are equal, there are more men who will be having sex with more than one woman than the inverse, or the numbers wouldn’t balance.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#837

Post by haskellandchill » Wed, May 05, 2021, 3:58 AM UTC

Hitton wrote: post #452

haskellandchill wrote: post #127

I'm an incel. It doesn't have to be sexist. I don't have any specific feelings towards women. I just know I don't get an ROI on investing in dating. So I just invest in my self for my self and allow myself one sexual interaction a month through paying for it like a service. I'm available for dating or relationships but have no expectations. It's healthy enough.

>I just know I don't get an ROI on investing in dating. Nothing wrong with that, but that means it's voluntary. And the latter part means that it isn't even celibate.

I interpret it as in the dating market I am effectively involuntarily celibate, perhaps there’s a more accurate subculture but I love incel tears. I also like the edginess. It’s a banned word on twitch.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#838

Post by ceilingcorner » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:00 AM UTC

xiphias2 wrote: post #720

ceilingcorner wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren’t either or situations. Acting as if the only options are an abusive marriage or prostitution is really misleading. There are plenty of ways to incentivize monogamy, disincentivize divorce, and yet still allow for individual freedom. Why haven’t these been tested? I’ll suggest because like all movements, the gender equality movement has been driven largely by extremist activists (who gain social power) and…

> Why haven’t these been tested? They were tested and perfected a hundred thousand years ago when humans were living in tribes. In a tribe shaming people for being polygamous was part of the system to keep some checks and balances. With people moving to cities and dating online, those checks and balances are suppressed, and the market balance shifted towards polygamy (few high value man date many women).

I haven’t studied the anthropology, but is it true that people in tribal societies tend to be monogamous?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#839

Post by jjeaff » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:02 AM UTC

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #751

krrrh wrote: post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Widely and freely available HD porn too. It’s easier than ever for people to use it as a substitute, and it reduces the drive to seduce. It contributes to a downward spiral of satisficing. Edit: Getting downvotes from folks in denial. I’m not making this stuff up, college students rarely used to have ED, now porn-induced ED is quite common. Many such cases! [0] [0] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5039517…

I thought porn was supposed to make people into sexual deviants, which is it?

A common side effect of porn addiction is that the addict requires more and more extreme situations and stimulus in order to get aroused. So I would say that is sort of turning one into a sexual deviant.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#840

Post by InvertedRhodium » Wed, May 05, 2021, 4:04 AM UTC

gautamcgoel wrote: post #774

alpaca128 wrote: post #655

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone living in a country where prostitution is legal I have a hard time seeing how your argument goes from that to dystopia. It's heavily regulated and controlled, which is better than people doing it anyway without any oversight and the safeties from that. And even aside from that I don't see a problem with it, of course as long as it's 100% consensual. Maybe I'm missing some obvious problem, but the thing cur…

Just out of curiosity, which country are you describing?

I can't speak on their behalf, but it sounds like a pretty accurate description of both Australia and New Zealand to me.