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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#261
post #209

"But Fried and his co-founder, David Heinemeier Hansson, had been taken aback by an employee post which argued that mocking customer names laid the foundation for racially-motivated violence, and closed the thread." Children understand that calling people names isn't the same as violence. At some point can we all admit that the most narcissistic, dramatic people are overly-indulged by this garbage? I'm at a startup n…

I have a slightly different take as to what all this is and I havent seen it expressed almost anywhere. Since the proliferation of the internet the world has gotten exponentially more competitive. Information and access have been reduced to almost uniformity if you understand the tools. No while prizes have gotten larger, there are simply way more people competing for the top spot than before. These culture wars are simply just a new weapon for those without power to seize it. Its not much different that coming from wealth, being charismatic or the host of other weapons being wielded in a competitive game. Human kind has always been collective, but the largest motivation is survival of the self. You should look at this change a clever weaponization for a class that wants more power and not some intrinsic right or wrong.

What is likely to happen is we will always see it moving forward, but eventually (outside of extreme circumstances like violence), these things become less powerful as the novelty of the charge wears off.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#262
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point the OP is making is that an overt statement such as "White power!!1 Jews will not replace us!!!sixonetikitorches" directly exposes a white supremacist opinion, whereas there are less overt actions that, if analysed thoughtfully, also expose white supremacy. It is very similar to people who say "I'm not racist, I don't think I'm superior to anyone and the dictionary definition of racism is to assume…

Oddly, several members of the defund movement have said they literally want to defund and abolish the police. It's almost like words mean things? > If one believes that a particular race is, on average, more likely to commit the types of crime for which one should be incarcerated, and one sees incarceration as an "inferior" way of life, then the logical conclusion is that they are racist. You can try to argue that cr…

> Oddly, several members of the defund movement have said they literally want to defund and abolish the police. It's almost like words mean things?

Yes those are the "few anarchists" I was referring to. From what I have seen of people discussing the "defund the police" movement it's about a dramatic reform of law enforcement, including much less emphasis on armed police storming about the place.

> You can try to argue that crime rates show disproportional racial representation for a bunch of reasons. Claiming anyone who states the facts is racist is wrong.

I didn't claim anyone stating the facts is wrong, I made the claim that when people attribute a statistical anomaly like disparity in incarceration rates to an aggregation of personal failures rather than a systemic problem, they are logically being racist (even if they don't see it as such).

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why hacker?

their explanation: it's "gendered and not inclusive"

"hacker" isn't gendered.

> 1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary.

http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/H/hacker.html

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#264
post #72
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the other hand, when did racial equality become an inherently political topic? Especially racial equality inside the workplace. When acronyms became "white supremacy culture"[1], public magnet schools became "systemic racism"[2], showing up to work on time and objective thinking became "whiteness"[3], etc. "racial equality" became just another Motte and Bailey in the hyper-polarized toxic political world we live…

First, please don't take HN threads straight into ideological flamewar hell. Second, since you've been using HN primarily for that, we've banned the account. We ban accounts that use HN primarily for ideological battle, regardless of which ideology they're battling for, because there's nothing more destructive of the intended use of the site. Not to mention its intended spirit, which is gratifying curiosity , not smi…

This user is also almost entirely involved in ideological battles: https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=cozuya

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#265

white su·prem·a·cy; the belief that white people constitute a superior race and should therefore dominate society de·fund; prevent from continuing to receive funds Courtesy of the dictionary. This is not hard. Stop entertaining people who redefine words.

Your comment strikes me as disingenuous and willfully obstinate. disingenuous (adj) giving a false appearance of simple frankness obstinate (adj) pertinaciously adhering to an opinion pertinacious (adj) marked by an unyieldingly persistent fixedness (as of opinion, purpose, action) that is often annoyingly perverse in fact or in appearance It looks like you simply googled those words and copy-pasted the definitions.…

@dang flamebaiting against the rules! Oy vey shut it down

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#266

I can't believe why this is so abuzz as it's their company, their rules - as long as they don't violate laws at any level, they can do whatever makes them happy at their own company! Employees get paid to do certain job, they don't do this for free. Basecamp is a business, it's not a charity or an activist collective - unless the owners want it that way! Employment is at will and can be terminated on either side at a…

[deleted]

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> : to withdraw funding from > and "withdraw" does not mean "remove completely" It certainly _can_ and usually _does_ mean remove completely. Examples: - "I'm withdrawing my student from this school" - "The peer review committee has decided to withdraw this erroneous paper from publication" - "I would like to withdraw $100 from my checking account" (It means the _whole_ $100) - "He is experiencing heroine withdrawal…

You are right! It can mean these things! But it can also mean other things, and (in my opinion) carefully parsing definitions distracts from the challenging and impactful work of understanding what others mean , not just the official definition of the words they used . "Defund the police" can sound extreme, or counterintuitive, or downright confusing. But it seems urgently important (to me) to understand why so many…

> carefully parsing definitions distracts from the challenging and impactful work of understanding what others mean, not just the official definition of the words they used.

The onus is on both parties to communicate effectively and find language that removes ambiguity. Unfortunately, I think some degree of sophistry is occurring to use ambiguity as a motte and bailey.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#268
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"demanding that someone declare that white supremacy exists at work" I would just love if you could point out this interaction to us. You have wildly mischaracterized it lmao.

Not the person you replied to, but this was a direct quote: > “The fact that you can be a white male, and come to this meeting and call people racist and say ‘white supremacy doesn't exist’ when it's blatant at this company is white privilege,” the employee said. “The fact that he wasn’t corrected and was in fact thanked — it makes me sick.” Isn't this employee declaring that "white supremacy" is "blatant at this com…

I don't know what was said at the meeting. But Singer did start making comments about white supremacy in America at a meeting about banning political discussion at Basecamp. I could see how it looked like his opinions were given more respect than others.

If he made statements about white supremacy not existing at basecamp, then that was a horrible defense to accusations of white privilege at Basecamp. Shutting down discussions over arguments about phrasing makes it looks like Basecamp would prefer just to ignore issues with discrimination if they did exist.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#269

I feel bad for everyone involved. This story made me realize that working at Basecamp is not something I would want to do in the future, primarily because DHH and Fried are so egotistic. However, it also makes me face the reality that I would not want to work with many of the people that resigned. Resigning over a random employee refusing to say that "white supremacy exists" is absurd. I imagine myself working at som…

> Resigning over a random employee refusing to say that "white supremacy exists" is absurd It's not a random employee though. It's someone who is part of the Senior Leadership Team. If you deny that it exists then how can you be trusted to do something if an issue does comes up ?

That's also not what Singer said. Singer said that he doesn't believe we live in a white supremacist culture. In a statement lower in the article he explicitly says it does exist, and I don't see that as necessarily contradictory with anything else he had said during the meeting in question.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#270
post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm... So do you reckon this is just something that happens with age? Or has each generation inadvertantly provided an ideological framework for the next one to strangle it with?

> has each generation inadvertantly provided an ideological framework for the next one to strangle it with? LOL, that's a hilarious way of putting it, but I think it's more about whether people keep learning and growing as they age or decide that they already know everything they need to. If you stop learning and growing, you're going to be left behind by the people who don't.

That's another side of the coin to consider. Thanks.
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