On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#761

Post by mlyle » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

dukeofdoom wrote: post #663

mlyle wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time... if all the incels improve their fashion, attractiveness, and dating game... it's going to be at the expense of someone else, right? Or do we think more in total will end up partnered and the total size of the pie will increase?

I'm not sure how to answer that. The dating game is in some ways like any other game. There's some minimum threshold of competence below which nobody wants to play with you. Ideally, you have enough skills that people will want to play with you all the time. If you conduct yourself well, they will look forward to playing with you over and over. But at the same time, I recognize that there are people beyond mastering…

On the balance I didn't really enjoy dating. There were some fun points, but there was plenty of annoyance, too. For me, stable, partnered life is a lot more enjoyable.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#762

Post by paulryanrogers » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #544

ceilingcorner wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn’t say that it’s incentivized at all. Weddings are expensive, divorces are financially disastrous (yet easy to initiate), and a sizable segment of the population thinks the idea of marriage is “uncool”, for lack of a better word. Things like adultery are nearly outright encouraged in Netflix shows and novels. It doesn’t surprise me at all that many people look at marriage as it currently stands and just say,…

We spent around $700 on our wedding. Front yard ceremony, $150-200 for the justice of the peace, trays of food from the local BBQ place, more wine, beer, and drinks than our 25 or so closest friends could consume. Getting married isn't inherently expensive. People make it so because an entire industry is optimized around convincing you to spend more on a dress than we spent on an entire wedding.

Culture also instills in girls and young women that it must be their perfect day. Family obligations and expectations can add more pressure.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#763

Post by DangitBobby » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:53 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #109

edgyquant wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen this thrown around by Jordan Peterson and his fans but I’ve never met anyone, regardless of how crazy their ideology was, advocate for equality of outcomes outside of basic necessities. I’m convinced it’s a strawman.

I don't know why you're being down-voted, you're right. I haven't met anyone, even in the insanely left and progressive university circles that I run in, who advocate for equality in outcome. It's equality in opportunity that's important. It's about letting 'your freedom as an individual to choose your own destiny' actually be 'free' from the start and not constrained by social mores, ingrained biases or discriminati…

Isn't equality of outcome used to measure equality of opportunity?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#764

Post by AussieWog93 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:55 PM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #416

schnevets wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am frequently surprised by the number of "dead bedrooms" I know about among friends, and I sincerely believe the problem is the western world's secretly coy perception of sex. There is a superficial surface level that is extremely wrong (for example, Successful people have sex, the most successful people have the hottest sex with the hottest partners; Sex isn't about planning it's about letting the desire overcome…

> I think this is a very Americanized perspective, though, so I would be especially interested in hearing perspectives from other cultures. I agree this is very Americanised, I can chime from two different perspectives and cultures: Brazil and Sweden. Brazil is... Very Americanised, I believe that the same issues the USA has with sex are present in Brazil, it's expressed in some different ways but the underlying issu…

I don't know whether this is the case for everyone, but I've noticed that my wife's dissatisfaction tends to correlate very very strongly with periods where I'm completely exhausted.

I genuinely believe most men _want_ to satisfy their partners securely, in the same way that many working mothers _want_ to cook wholesome, healthy meals from scratch for their children, but after yet another stressful day we just don't have focus and energy required to show the love in that way.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#765

Post by daenz » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:56 PM UTC

coronasaurus wrote: post #698

daenz wrote: post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where do you see that? Every result from my quick searching is listing women as longer than men. Example: https://www.purplemotes.net/2015/08/23/medieval-life-expecta...

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2847291?seq=1

"making it to adulthood" is different than "living longer"

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#766

Post by brandmeyer » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:59 PM UTC

odiroot wrote: post #424

The longer I live, and especially after having read that post, the more I think the civil institution of marriage is a mistake. We would be better off, if it remained a purely religious or traditional ceremony, without the government putting a stack of papers into the equation. Just let people be happy together; even bound by a promise, if they wish so, but without the external pressure and the fallout in case they f…

> Fallout in case they fall out of love. Divorces are such a complicated and often-times life ruining experience.

The fallout is going to happen no matter what. Marriage and Divorce law exist to bring a bare minimum of equity in the outcome and assure the care of any minor children who are affected.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#767

Post by johnnyanmac » Wed, May 05, 2021, 12:01 AM UTC

bonoboTP wrote: post #749

johnnyanmac wrote: post #732

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Psychological doesn't mean "you can't become a functional human without it". it means "without it, the mental state of a significant amount of humans will be altered". Under that definition, there is certainly an argument to be made about sex in some forms being a "psychological need". which build off the 3 universal psychological needs of autonomy, competence, and relatedness: https://www.ljmu.ac.uk/microsites/promo…

Let's not get too far away from my original point. When people say "sex is a basic physical need", they want to imply or paint the association that it's like water and air. It's not like that.

"People" say a lot of things that may or may not be outdated, outright stupid, or otherwise missing nuance. If that's your original point, I'm not interested in it, to be frank.

I'm mostly responding to the original idea of "Putting it on that pyramid has somehow fallen out of favor". your initial response of "It's not a basic physical need. It's a psychological need. " made it sound like it didn't deserve to be on bottom part of the pyramid, or that you perhaps didn't know that those two categories are often the same part of the pyramid. So I responded in turn to inform.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#768

Post by michaelpb » Wed, May 05, 2021, 12:04 AM UTC

eloff wrote: post #705

eloff wrote: post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing about what I said means that values are static over time or that the balance can't shift. It's true that today's crazies at the edge might be tomorrows center - although I find that thought troubling! But make no mistake, the extremes at both ends harbor dangerous crazies. In politics, while the evils of the right are obvious and dangerous, the evils of the left are much more seductive but have been just as d…

Just an aside, I've noticed that anything I post criticizing the right gets me upvotes on HN. Anything criticizing the left is much more controversial. I wonder how HN leans as a whole? I view myself as left of center, but not left enough by the standards of this community. I just find that interesting.

I've have had the opposite observation, probably has a lot to do with whoever is in the particular thread

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#769

Post by CapCade » Wed, May 05, 2021, 12:06 AM UTC

I expect this will get lost in the commotion here, but:

The author uses language around sex that I think treats it, subtly but disturbingly, as a commodity. They write of a "withholder/withholdee", of "women who want to provide sexual intimacy" (note the word "provide"), and of "women... putting out".

The problem with this framework (which is endemic to the larger culture) is that it runs against bodily autonomy for all of us. If sex is a commodity, then the people who provide or withhold it are just means to an end. And treating people (including ourselves) as means to an end is rather degrading.

Imagine using the same language for any other consensual activity. If someone's partner no longer wanted to go out dancing, play board games, or make music together, would we say they were "withholding gameplay" or failing to "provide entertainment" or no longer "putting out music"? I hope not.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#770

Post by paulryanrogers » Wed, May 05, 2021, 12:06 AM UTC

everdrive wrote: post #755

rrradical wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't mean to be glib, but, are you saying women who are in a poor state are desirable? I don't think so... Is it bad that women don't find some men attractive, when those same men probably wouldn't find some women attractive? I apologize if that misconstrues your opinion, but I've heard it elsewhere before: that somehow women 'should' be more forgiving of unattractiveness than men are, and that's really weird to m…

>Is it bad that women don't find some men attractive, Not at all, especially because it's most likely that they can't help it. It'd be like asking me to find ugly girls sexually attractive. Even if I felt it would be the best the to do morally, I couldn't will myself to it: it's out of my control for the most part. And so it is with women: we really shouldn't hate someone for their innate preferences. (and especially…

> I started discarding nearly all of the dating advice I'd gotten from peers, TV, movies, etc.

What seems to have worked in my circles is simply lowering overly high expectations. It is interesting how long some are willing to wait, pining away, for that perfect match when they themselves are ... not exceptionally attractive.