On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#621

Post by betwixthewires » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

dartharva wrote: post #173

giantg2 wrote: post #3

"It’s 2021, and it would be pretty hard to find someone who would come out and say that women deserve to be treated worse than men by default, and similarly difficult to find someone believes men shouldn’t have rights. In that sense at least we are all feminists and men’s rights activists, but nearly 100% of everyone reading this would have felt some emotional recoil from being called at least one of those two things…

> but nearly 100% of everyone reading this would have felt some emotional recoil from being called at least one of those two things What's the rationale behind this statement? It seems like it's implying "nearly 100%" people are one or the other kind of extremists when it comes to Gender politics. Wouldn't it rather be the other way round, people knowingly identifying themselves as both Feminists and MRAs (redundant,…

The rationale behind that statement is explained in the subsequent statements in the article. Something about how there's a difference between agreeing with some group or cause's ststet principles and identifying as an in group member as a part of ones identity. The article explains it better than I am.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#622

Post by skystarman » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

rrradical wrote: post #596

everdrive wrote: post #190

>Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. This will be downvoted and poorly received, but the fact is that women despise weak men. If a man is in a poor state, most women will be visibly disgusted by him. A man generally should not expect sym…

I don't mean to be glib, but, are you saying women who are in a poor state are desirable? I don't think so... Is it bad that women don't find some men attractive, when those same men probably wouldn't find some women attractive? I apologize if that misconstrues your opinion, but I've heard it elsewhere before: that somehow women 'should' be more forgiving of unattractiveness than men are, and that's really weird to m…

I have no data on this but my anecdata tells me that if a woman is in a poor state but is attractive plenty of men will be willing to treat her nicely and not consider her "pathetic" at least long enough to sleep with her.

Doesn't really work the same way for dudes

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#623

Post by michaelpb » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

krastanov wrote: post #302

toyg wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both you and parent are right, but you have to acknowledge that extremists and totalitarians do exist.

"you have to acknowledge that extremists and totalitarians do exist" is a cheap rhetorical device to sneak in "both sides are the same" fallacies. Yes, of course there are crazies in any political movement, demographic, subculture, or other group. Elevating these crazies to the first thing mentioned when discussing the actual substance of the beliefs of a group is silly at best, but more frequently it is simply a dis…

Yeah, exactly!

It's also simply not a useful type of statement even when made in good faith. It assumes all issues fit on scales. For example, there are people today who call themselves feminists, and have extremely different views about LGBTQ+ rights compared to others who call themselves feminist (notably around the BTQ+ part). I really don't know who is the more "extreme", since that implies that I am referencing an agreed upon "center" which these positions differ from, and that simply doesn't exist. There is no agreed upon "center" for anything. Both claim to be feminists, and claim the other side is wrong, and neither would consider the other either more "extreme" or more "centrist".

This is just one example, but I would argue that this holds true in nearly every case: Reducing something to a scale with "extremes" on each side mostly just shows how the speaker perceives other positions and is otherwise not very useful.

CS stuff: IMO a better mental model would be non-Cartesian. Perhaps a weighted graph, where the vertices are ideologies (or, to be more granular, people), and the edge-weights represent some fuzzy metric of overlap of beliefs.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#624

Post by x86ARMsRace » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

the_af wrote: post #469

x86ARMsRace wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's absolutely correct. In my case at least I remember occasionally waking up when I was very young in hysterics because of general existential dread related to death.

Would finding a romantic partner help with existential dread related to death? You will not only worry about your own death, but that of your partner's as well. Some degree of this is normal and expected, as it's part of being human, but if it reaches the pathological levels described by the author of TFA...

> Would finding a romantic partner help with existential dread related to death?

For me it did not.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#625

Post by skindoe » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #472

commandlinefan wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really worried for my teenage son. Dating was brutal when I was doing it 20 years ago, and as far as I can tell, it's gotten so, so much worse since. Modern dating can't literally be "winner take all", but it sure looks like it's getting close.

I strongly disagree, but my evidence is all anecdotal. I'm not saying that literally every guy can find a partner, but I have seen all manner of men end up with perfectly lovely partners (and/or occasional sex partners). And when I say "all manner" I mean dumb guys, ugly guys, short guys, guys with terrible hygiene. The spectrum of men I have personally witnessed have success with women is vast and diverse and even k…

And how many men who are unbeknownst to you alone and completely struggling in the dating market have you seen but are conviently ignored for a couple flashy examples that stuck out in your mind?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#626

Post by gsk22 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

mlyle wrote: post #559

gsk22 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between "I am happier with a partner" and "I am miserable without a partner".

Yah. I think for me, in the long term, I'd be miserable without a partner. The continuity and shared journey is a key part of what makes life tolerable. Yes, friendships are great, but they're not the same. Not to mention: I like getting laid. I also think my wife is a uniquely good partner for me. If I lost her, for some reason, it would be difficult to find a situation nearly as good for me. That's hardly the same…

Miserable is defined as "wretchedly unhappy"...you really would feel that way without a partner? That sounds like an unhealthy mindset.

I understand not being as happy or fulfilled without a partner, but _miserable_?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#627

Post by serverholic » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

insickness wrote: post #260

colanderman wrote: post #154

I feel a common issue with such "dead bedroom" discussions is the seeming lack of capacity of some parties (including some prominent toplevel comments here) to understand how deep a need for sex many people have. To think sex can be replaced with "strong friendships" is laughable to anyone who actually feels a strong desire for sex. The dead bedroom situations I've seen with my friends (M->F equally as well as F->M)…

> dead bedroom situations are always the result of one party being incapable of understanding the other's desire for sex. Couldn't disagree more. Sexual attraction is not about 'understanding' how your partner feels. A man who is no longer attracted to his wife won't suddenly become attracted when he understands how she feels. Attraction is not a choice. It's not something you can talk yourself or someone else into.

Totally agree. OP should tell that to my friend who worked as hard as he could to save a dying marriage. No amount of understanding will help if the other person just doesn't feel it.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#628

Post by Sevastopol » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:55 PM UTC

yamellasmallela wrote: post #590

dukeofdoom wrote: post #518

I watched this average looking girl on youtube go to stunning. She started by caring about her appearance. And started looking to basically start upgrading her self, one step at a time. 1) She started to work out regularly 2) She got a nose job 3) Buys well fitting designer clothes 4) Spends money on hair and nails 5) Wears gold jewelry and hand bags. All of these complement her appearance. When some girls go to so m…

I agree but this is only applicable to incels who are "ugly". Some people are incels because they have no "game" and that is hard to fix. Also, not everyone can just get a nose job and be attractive magically. I think many people in the incel community don't understand how far showering, dressing well, and working out will get them. Its much better than complaining without any action. Also, I see many of them complai…

> I think many people in the incel community don't understand how far showering, dressing well, and working out will get them. Its much better than complaining without any action. Also, I see many of them complaining about not dating "10s" yet never bother to look at people at their level.

This is not really true. At least in the observable, online incel communities. Incels talk a lot about "-maxxing"[1]; looksmaxxing (improving appearance), gymmaxxing (improving physique), surgerymaxxing, moneymaxxing, therapymaxxing, ... you get the point.

The most common advice (showering, better clothes) is also a meme within the communities, like the "Just take a shower, bro" meme.

[1] https://incels.wiki/w/-maxxing

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#629

Post by ameminator » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

txsoftwaredev wrote: post #577

pengaru wrote: post #306

Isn't it kind of obvious that young single men are competing with nearly all adult men for the young women? Esp. with the rising divorce rates, more non-young men are going back on the market than previously, and they've got more financial stability and general security to offer than most their younger competitors. I'm betting they're not exactly chomping at the bit to shack up with women their age or older.

Divorce rates have been falling over the past decade. In 2019 divorce rates hit an all time low.

Only because marriage rates have been falling faster. The divorce rate (divorces/population) has not fallen as fast as the marriage rate (marriages/population). The number of divorces/marriage is still on the rise. No one is getting married these days and when they do, they are more likely to get divorced.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#630

Post by mlyle » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:56 PM UTC

dukeofdoom wrote: post #518

I watched this average looking girl on youtube go to stunning. She started by caring about her appearance. And started looking to basically start upgrading her self, one step at a time. 1) She started to work out regularly 2) She got a nose job 3) Buys well fitting designer clothes 4) Spends money on hair and nails 5) Wears gold jewelry and hand bags. All of these complement her appearance. When some girls go to so m…

At the same time... if all the incels improve their fashion, attractiveness, and dating game... it's going to be at the expense of someone else, right? Or do we think more in total will end up partnered and the total size of the pie will increase?