On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#561

Post by Pfhreak » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:11 PM UTC

2lwxxtj wrote: post #479

Pfhreak wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, however, no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). If you are struggling to fulfill that need, it's on you to improve yourself through building skills, seeking therapy, finding appropriate medications, or whatever else. Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance.

>no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). That's your opinion. >is a real problematic stance. Oh, no, not problematic! What if there are actually external factors that influence your ability to succeed, and you would like to advocate for modifying those external factors to increase your ability to succeed?

>>no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not).

> That's your opinion

Yes, and it's shared by nearly everyone. The alternative is that you believe someone does owe you a relationship, which is anathema to anyone who values individual liberty and freedom at any level. Everyone who is advocating for making changes to society to improve their chances is really fucking cagey about the specifics.

So let me ask you, what changes do you propose, and who owes you a relationship?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#562

Post by mlyle » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

void_mint wrote: post #386

gsk22 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a big difference between "I am happier with a partner" and "I am miserable without a partner".

I don't think it's generally worthwhile to argue with people whose arguments center around "I love my wife and you cannot tell me that's not okay." Lots of these responses read as though people are feeling attacked, which isn't a great baseline to start any reasonable conversation.

In fairness, the tone of the earlier comments has been edited-- the original tone of "you're all codependent" and the statement that we're all just jealous that we can't play video games whenever we want maybe reasonably made people feel attacked.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#563

Post by birdyrooster » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

colanderman wrote: post #154

I feel a common issue with such "dead bedroom" discussions is the seeming lack of capacity of some parties (including some prominent toplevel comments here) to understand how deep a need for sex many people have. To think sex can be replaced with "strong friendships" is laughable to anyone who actually feels a strong desire for sex. The dead bedroom situations I've seen with my friends (M->F equally as well as F->M)…

Quick edit:

No-one is entitled to sex. But individuals in a sexually-exclusive relationship are entitled [to leave and find more compatible partners].

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#564

Post by sokoloff » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

odiroot wrote: post #424

The longer I live, and especially after having read that post, the more I think the civil institution of marriage is a mistake. We would be better off, if it remained a purely religious or traditional ceremony, without the government putting a stack of papers into the equation. Just let people be happy together; even bound by a promise, if they wish so, but without the external pressure and the fallout in case they f…

I'll take some of the other side here. I'm married; my wife didn't have strong feelings about getting married (lived in Europe for a while and was comfortable raising a family together unmarried); I wanted to get married earlier than we did.

We have two children together and she wanted to stay home with the kids for a few years but wasn't willing to do that without the framework of a marriage in place. Was 10 years ago and no sign that we're headed for trouble, but the civil and legal framework and what was at stake as a result was helpful to support a choice that we were all fortunate to benefit from all around (with a slight hit to retirement savings account balances).

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#565

Post by coronasaurus » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:15 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #425

bloak wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"History shows that 80% of women reproduced compared to only 40% of men!" That doesn't necessarily imply polygamy, and it doesn't necessarily imply "incels". Imagine a society in which women get married at age 16 and typically die during childbirth before they reach the age of 32, and men get married at age 32, if they live that long, which most of them don't, and then get married again when the first wife dies durin…

Women have lived longer than men throughout most of history and in basically every society, so your theory doesn't hold. Childbirth was dangerous but men's work was even more dangerous.

Citation needed. A quick Google search on life expectancy during the middle ages tells me that men lived longer than women.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#566

Post by throwaway1492 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #445

MattGaiser wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am frequently surprised by the number of "dead bedrooms" I know about among friends I originally thought they were mostly an old people thing, but I am hearing more stories about it from friends. And we are mid 20s.

One thing to note is that birth-control may decrease libido in some women. The science is a bit mixed though. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/all-about-sex/201902... As for the male side of things, I'm not sure if there is a environmental culprit like birth-control.

Bluntly, pornography and masturbation can lead to desensitization and difficulty in "real" sex with a partner. A lot of the r/nofap people have discussed this extensively. I know of no studies to cite, but there's a tone of anecdotal evidence available on that particular subreddit.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#567

Post by ethbr0 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:17 PM UTC

Fargren wrote: post #556

ethbr0 wrote: post #549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sexual exclusive relationships are a subset of healthy relationships.

That would imply all sexual exclusive relationships are healthy, which is very much not the case. Sexual exclusivity and relationship health are orthogonal.

I think you're taking the set theory a bit too far...

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#568

Post by tonyp2121 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:17 PM UTC

corty wrote: post #372

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making assumptions that you won't find yourself in the same state one day where you require the selfless help of others.

No, I'm not. While I would appreciate help in such a situation, I can fully understand anyone walking away. Being a bother to people and needy is one of the worst parts of being ill.

Thinking your depressed friend is a bother to yourself has told me that I'm very blessed you and I are not friends.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#569

Post by johnnyanmac » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:19 PM UTC

colanderman wrote: post #154

I feel a common issue with such "dead bedroom" discussions is the seeming lack of capacity of some parties (including some prominent toplevel comments here) to understand how deep a need for sex many people have. To think sex can be replaced with "strong friendships" is laughable to anyone who actually feels a strong desire for sex. The dead bedroom situations I've seen with my friends (M->F equally as well as F->M)…

Everyone will be different, and unfortunately sex is an extremely sensitive topic that is rife to end up in either flame wars or a bunch of jokes, despite it being a serious, personal, nuanced topic. In my culture personally (American), it also seems to be one constantly suppressed from conversation outside of maybe medical talks.

And in my experience on the internet, we're still a very, very, very long way from creating a community that can civilly speak on the topic. Heck, maybe even IRL; cultures as a whole still can't even agree with what kinds of sexual content is legal to sell (not even age-gated, just outright denying a consenting adult the choice to buy professionally made content), so this may be a while. It may not even be resolved in my lifetime.

On a personal level, I'm fine with the myriads of porn I have stashed about my house. But I can't take cat girl out for a quick lunch and chat about the day. I miss friends.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#570

Post by shejeod » Tue, May 04, 2021, 9:19 PM UTC

kemayo wrote: post #522

spoonjim wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The numbers in the article itself state that more 18-29 year old women than men are having sex. Excluding gay sex this implies the “Don Juan hypothesis” as you call it.

Not necessarily -- it could just as well imply that 19-29 year old women are having entirely-monogamous sex with men outside (hopefully above ) the 18-29 range. Also, that 18-29 chart is about people looking for a relationship. The data about actually-having-sex [1] used different age ranges, breaking up 18-24 and 25-34. It shows a spike of no-sex in 18-24 men, which evens out with women once they're into the 25-35 r…

This is accurate. When I was 18-24 life sucked, because all the younger women were still in high school, and almost all of the women my own age were hooking up with older guys. The sweet spot for men starts around the late 20s.

My hypothesis is that this is because of a pretty significant gap in EQ and maturity between young men and women. Also women’s prime reproductive years (physically) are from late teens to early 30s. Men’s prime years to be able to support their partners is usually starting around 30s. Makes sense when you think of it like that.