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On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

residentcontrarian.substack.com

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Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#461

Post by benlivengood »

ufmace wrote: post #362
benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> I think that's the strongest criticism of incels as well; having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. Let me take this in another direction than most of the other comments: Say you're talking to a homosexual person in a deeply homophobic society, one so bad that you risk becoming a pariah at the very notion that you might enjoy relations with someone of the same sex. Would you t…

I agree with a fair portion of the original article and my comment was almost off-topic because it relates more to the author than the article.

The common feeling the author identifies with incels is the intense loneliness and unhappiness. By no means am I criticizing anyone for their feelings. What I am saying is look for the primary underlying cause and dealing with those feelings which is to a) deal with mental health issues. b) focus on building a strong support system for healthy emotional regulation to alleviate loneliness especially. Life should be enjoyable with friends and hobbies, not miserable.

I also want to point out that what a lot of incels want is not a healthy relationship with a woman, but a glorified sex slave or sex worker in exchange for treating them with basic dignity. This is a far cry from gay people oppressed by homophobia. Nonetheless, for the sake of incels who understand what healthy relationships are like and want that:

I'm trying to be pragmatic. I'd advise a gay friend to escape their strictly homophobic society and help them leave. If there's no where to go then I can only offer emotional support and try to fix the society. Likewise, I think introspection about the true source of intense negative feelings is the best thing for anyone who feels intensely unhappy about life for any perceived reason. I have felt intensely unhappy in the past and I have a lot of evidence now that it was mental health and not circumstances like whether I had a partner or not, despite it feeling like the cause sometimes. Love and sex can mask a lot of negative mental health, too.

Pragmatically what else can we do for incels? They feel very bad, none of us (speaking for the men) can give them what they want, and the only way forward for them that I see is helping them find coping skills and support systems to become emotionally healthy. Most of them have unrealistic expectations and will be disappointed until they correct them. The others will have to wait to find the right partner while otherwise enjoying their lives.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#462

Post by phkahler »

toyg wrote: post #221
spoonjim wrote: post #140

Essentially, what we have right now in the sexual marketplace echoes what we have in the economy... a lot of the sex is being had by a small fraction of the people. The need for sex is perhaps as high as the need for money but nobody talks about this crushing inequality, perhaps because there is no practical way to “tax and redistribute” sex. The problem is worse for men since a man needs a certain set of skills and…

> there is no practical way to “tax and redistribute” sex. But there is a way to improve supply: give dignity to prostitution.

>> But there is a way to improve supply: give dignity to prostitution.

Better yet, guys need to learn to be the kind of man women want to fvck. They're not obligated and attraction is non-negotiable. Reality can be harsh. Guys need to treat themselves with dignity and put themselves together.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#463

Post by Pfhreak »

matheusmoreira wrote: post #420
Pfhreak wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, however, no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). If you are struggling to fulfill that need, it's on you to improve yourself through building skills, seeking therapy, finding appropriate medications, or whatever else. Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance.

> it's on you to improve yourself Incels call this "maxxing". It doesn't seem to be particularly effective for them. > Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance. Why? Reducing inequality in dating seems like a fair goal to me. People become incels because everyone else rejects them. If that doesn't change, the number of incels will keep growing.

It's not working because they believe the wrong things about why they are struggling to find companionship. It's not just find some stat to max and done, positioning the problem this way is itself part of the problem.

> Reducing inequality in dating

What does this mean, be specific. I cannot think of anything except absolutely ghoulish ideas that remove agency from women.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#464

Post by thelean12 »

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #457
thelean12 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you can't get women, it's entirely your fault I'm curious, and this will probably be too curt but I am honestly trying to figure it out: Whose fault is it? Because incels believe it's the women's fault, and this message is the opposite. It doesn't seem productive to tell them that it's society's fault or some other external thing. What are they supposed to do about that? Most men that I know, including myself, f…

It's often fault of a psychological trauma suffered in childhood. Sexual abuse, for example. So counseling is one thing that society could provide to such men. Sexual therapy treatments have been used successfully in some countries.

This is much more convincing than dnissley's response to me. I wonder how many "incels" have suffered trauma in their childhood.

I certainly don't expect people to just work through childhood trauma without societal help. ex. Make it cheap, easy, and acceptable to get therapy. Much different than my list above IMO where most people can work on it themselves without many excuses.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#465

Post by a_puppy »

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

Hi. I'm a guy who has, for my entire life, had difficulty forming romantic relationships. For most of my life, I also had a lot of trouble forming close friendships. So this is a topic that is very personal for me, and please listen carefully to what I have to say.

First: close friendships are not a substitute for romantic relationships. Friendship and romance are two distinct needs. Not every human is wired to need romance, but _many_ people are. At this point in my life, I'm fortunate enough to have a circle of close platonic friends, but I'm still single, and I'm acutely feeling the lack of romance.

That being said, you have a valid point that romantic relationships are not a substitute for close friendships. Some incels want to get a girlfriend as a substitute for making friends, and I agree that's a bad idea. But telling them "make strong friendships" is not helpful! Most people in this situation will struggle to form to close friendships for the same reasons that they struggle to form romantic relationships.

So how _should_ the problem be fixed? There are no easy solutions. And there especially aren't easy solutions that the sufferers can implement on their own; if there was an easy way out, they would have done it already. I believe this problem will continue until _society_ changes how it treats socially awkward people. Society needs to be more sensitive towards people who lack social skills, and stop demonizing them. For example, there's a tendency to conflate "incels" in the sense of "misogynistic assholes who use terms like Chad/Stacy/femoid", with "incels" in the sense of "any man who's lonely and complains about it". The former group is a tiny fraction of the latter group, and conflating them is very unfair to the latter group. This needs to stop.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#466

Post by Balgair »

everdrive wrote: post #190

>Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. This will be downvoted and poorly received, but the fact is that women despise weak men. If a man is in a poor state, most women will be visibly disgusted by him. A man generally should not expect sym…

> but the fact is that women despise weak men.

I'd say this is true for all genders and people. Homosexual people also display this tendency just as well as heterosexual males. Heck, even in friendships, it can be hard to enjoy being with a buddy that is going through a deep funk despite all your efforts to rouse them out of it. People want to be with people like themselves. Misery loves company, and vice-versa

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#467

Post by kova12 »

piva00 wrote: post #387
Ntrails wrote: post #283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actively not enjoying single life is a reasonable state of being. Not desirable, but not a mental health issue. Being measurably happier with a partner in your life is a positive outcome, indeed is one we should all strive for (or why bother)

But you are moving the goalposts, the statement in discussion is this: > I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. This is not healthy, doesn't matter how much you care about your partner and relationship. Feeling miserable every day without someone is not a good sign. You can be much happier when you are with your partner, you can enjoy to spend most days wi…

Don't you think this might have been figure of speech rather than statement of fact?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#468

Post by toyg »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #405
toyg wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why haven’t these been tested? Have they not? Marriage is widely incentivized in most societies. The UK reality at the moment, for example, heavily punishes singles: the housing markets optimizes for two incomes, pricing out singles; the taxing system favours spreading income over two individuals; and you have plenty of other marriage-related allowances. I'd be surprised if this was significantly different in the U…

I wouldn’t say that it’s incentivized at all. Weddings are expensive, divorces are financially disastrous (yet easy to initiate), and a sizable segment of the population thinks the idea of marriage is “uncool”, for lack of a better word. Things like adultery are nearly outright encouraged in Netflix shows and novels. It doesn’t surprise me at all that many people look at marriage as it currently stands and just say,…

I fear that words like "easy" or "expensive" in this realm are difficult to evaluate objectively.

Weddings, for example, are not expensive, if you consider them as a bureaucratic act: in most countries, it's just a few forms to fill him with minimal fees attached. However, if you impose on them oversized cultural expectations (which come from "netflix shows of the past"...) of white horses, diamonds, banquets and so on, then yeah, it's an expensive act. Maybe, if one wanted more weddings, one should support reducing some of these artificial obstacles...?

> a sizable segment of the population thinks the idea of marriage is “uncool”

That's always been true, as showed in literature of the past.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#469

Post by the_af »

x86ARMsRace wrote: post #84
Supermancho wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it's not old age, but youth in his case that was unhappy until he met his wife. Some people feel the existential dread before it is realized. This is shared by both sexes and sometimes expressed at absurdly young ages without prompting.

Yes, that's absolutely correct. In my case at least I remember occasionally waking up when I was very young in hysterics because of general existential dread related to death.

Would finding a romantic partner help with existential dread related to death? You will not only worry about your own death, but that of your partner's as well. Some degree of this is normal and expected, as it's part of being human, but if it reaches the pathological levels described by the author of TFA...

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#470

Post by nradov »

NickM wrote: post #117
whatshisface wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird to try and explain this from a sterile alien-studying-humans perspective, but since that's the HN theme I'll do my best. Marriage and having dependents carries with it a lot of economic cost. By revealed choice theory, that implies it has significant benefits, or else nobody would ever do it.

Well if we want to be all logical and science-y about this, we can't assume humans are rational beings. People obviously make bad decisions all the time. Just because lots of people have kids, for example, doesn't mean that having kids makes people happier, and in fact studies seem to show the opposite to be true on average. That said, I'm not trying to say that having kids is always an irrational choice, and certain…

People don't necessarily optimize for maximum happiness. It's not a good target metric.
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