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On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

residentcontrarian.substack.com

381–390 of 1001 posts

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#381

My pet theory is that the developed or post-industrialized world is becoming increasingly two-classed. I have had the privilege of having a decent job (being so-called "economically desirable") and decent education and was able to find someone who I think loves me for who I am, for some definition of "I am". That being said, the "incel" problem concerns me. I think the existence of this entire class of individuals sh…

> these hard statistical realities have increasingly robbed me of the romantic impulse I think you should reflect on how sensible it is to apply population-wide statistical trends to your personal situation (which is not statistical at all). If you follow the statistics you should not start a business or go to college[1]. I really urge you to take seriously that your own personal experience is more valid than statist…

>If you follow the statistics you should not start a business or go to college[1].

Some statistics only talk about the average subject. If you assume you are not average, there might be a different statistically optimal path.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#382
I can't seem to make head and tails of this data. I guess the explanation would be that older men are dating younger women, which explains why younger men are single compared to younger women. But looking at the distribution, it seems it would need to come from the 65+ cohort... And that would be a little surprising.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#383
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Progressives advocate abolishing advanced classes in high school because “they have too many white and Asian students”. Several schools have done so. That is equality of outcome in practice.

The only times I've seen "advanced classes" get abolished is when districts KEPT advanced classes in high schools, but got rid of "ability tracking" (read: high, middle, and low-performing tracks) in early grades (k-6 usually). This is because low-income and minority students are more likely to be tracked low performing in lower grades, thereby baking in the inequity in the system. Eliminating those tracking systems,…

We have a public high school around me that is for STEM students. It has limited seats available. It is not only based on prior grades but on essays about why you deserve to go and stuff. It ends up rejecting many students every year. I can see requiring an entrance exam or prior grades to prove you have the ability and won't be slowing people down, but this goes way beyond that.

I wonder how it can be that one has the desire and aptitude to succeed there and the public school can deny people that opportunity. That just seems antithetical to public education.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#384

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

>This is basically a red flag for any relationship. No it isn't. My grandparents, who were married for 60 years had this mentality. My wife's grandparents, who were married for a similar amount of time, also shared this mentality. My wife's parents still share this mentality (and are obviously completely devoted to one another, which you will notice if you spend about 5 seconds with them). My parents divorced, which…

I suppose the best reply to this is that for a healthy romantic/sexual relationship to exist the partners in it must already be basically emotionally healthy, including having the coping skills and support to deal with their own emotional disregulation if it exists.

It's wonderful to see happy partners in lifelong relationships. That is almost certainly a sign of individual emotional maturity and self-regulation. Those people would be happy in or out of that particular relationship (absolutely not discounting the intense grief of losing a lifelong partner, but the emotional resilience to start enjoying life again), and the ones you mention clearly have strong and healthy relationships with other people as well.

Unhappiness with life before finding a partner demonstrates that there is something fundamentally wrong. People feel too lonely, or too insignificant, or too unloved, or too undervalued, or some other excess of negative emotion that at its root is unhealthy self image or mental health issue and needs to be dealt with independently of whether or not that person is in a partnership. Validation from a relationship can certainly mask the underlying negative emotion, but there's a big risk that at some point a partner's validation will stop working and the person will become unhappy again but put the blame on the partner or the details of the relationship without realizing that it's the same internal emotional problem that was always there. Almost certainly if the relationship ends the person will think the partner left because of the incorrect belief they have about themselves due to negative emotions, e.g. "I was unlovable" or "I wasn't attractive enough".

> There is a bizarre (and imo destructive, and toxic) idea that seems to be running through tech especially that devotion to your partner is rooted in "jealousy". It usually leads to "maybe you guys should become polyamorous. What are you jealous?"

That is indeed toxic. Jealousy is a natural feeling; it can be rooted in some negative beliefs but not always. To me it feels like a fair mix of instinctual response from relationship preference and underlying fears. Unfortunately for the folks you mention instinctual jealousy is a pretty strong indication of a preference for monogamy and not for polyamory. In contrast what I've heard called "compersion" is a feeling of shared joy and happiness about a polyamorous partner's experiences with other partners, distinct from any sort of fetishization of another relationship (which while not necessarily unhealthy is distinct from simple happiness at a partner's happiness). Jealousy for me has usually been rooted in fear of loss; loss of a relationship or fear of missing out. For monogamous people jealousy is also rooted in, for lack of a better word... Monogamy. It's probably the majority relationship preference.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Way to dogpile on people when they're down. > They're just jealous you can travel and play video games whenever you want. =) This comment comes off defensive and hypocritical to me, rather than contributing to the conversation. You're basically saying we shouldn't talk about good things if some people don't have those good things; and also screw people with good things because they're actually jealous of the have-n…

To be frank, you response sounds a bit more defensive than mine. Are you arguing that if someone claims that it's possible to be perfectly content and happy while single, that that somehow undermines the happiness you've found with your partner, as if the mere claim that contentment can be found without a partner invalidates the fact that you're happy with your partner? I can easily read your response as saying somet…

Nowhere in the parent post does he seem looking down on anybody. Stating that life can be a whole lot better with the right partner is a morally neutral statement

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#386
post #353
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look-- my life would be crap without my wife. She's awesome and I am much happier in partnered life. I'd survive and have some enjoyment alone, but most of us end up partnered up because it's a serious buff to life fulfillment. That doesn't make us codependent, to know that I'd spend lots of time miserable if unpartnered and without my wife in particular.

There's a big difference between "I am happier with a partner" and "I am miserable without a partner".

I don't think it's generally worthwhile to argue with people whose arguments center around "I love my wife and you cannot tell me that's not okay." Lots of these responses read as though people are feeling attacked, which isn't a great baseline to start any reasonable conversation.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a bizarre (and imo destructive, and toxic) idea that seems to be running through tech especially that devotion to your partner is rooted in "jealousy" I feel like you're responding to a different argument than the one that was posed above. They weren't saying that a deep devotion to your partner is bad at all. They were saying that if you're miserable every moment you're not with your partner, there is lik…

Actively not enjoying single life is a reasonable state of being. Not desirable, but not a mental health issue. Being measurably happier with a partner in your life is a positive outcome, indeed is one we should all strive for (or why bother)

But you are moving the goalposts, the statement in discussion is this:

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable.

This is not healthy, doesn't matter how much you care about your partner and relationship. Feeling miserable every day without someone is not a good sign.

You can be much happier when you are with your partner, you can enjoy to spend most days with your partner, that's natural. Not enjoying a single day without them is pretty alarming.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#388

>> there was a fairly polarized split between the she-doesn’t-owe-you-sex-you-child crowd and the good-for-him-dump-the-frigid-broad edgelords. I envied their respective positions and their certainty of being right, because I know too many people... There is a version of this essay that's about establishing who's right and wrong, personally and/or publicly. In some cases, those essays need to be written. Those don't…

[deleted]

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#389
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you not support your friends through depression?

Because supporting depressed people is depressing and often futile. Mental illnesses can be transmissible that way. Also, supporting a depressed person needs lots of time and effort, and while they are depressed they give nothing back except bad vibes.

> Mental illnesses can be transmissible that way.

The medical term for what you are talking about is compassion fatigue. It's symptoms look a lot like depression: "People who experience compassion fatigue may exhibit a variety of symptoms including lowered concentration, numbness or feelings of helplessness, irritability, lack of self-satisfaction, withdrawal, aches and pains, or work absenteeism."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compassion_fatigue

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#390

These issues are far more serious than is known and commenters saying “too bad, you don’t deserve to date someone” really don’t understand how ineffective this approach is. You can’t just shame tens of thousands of men into accepting a substandard life. Disclaimer: I am not making any ethical judgments here, just observing. This problem didn’t really exist before for three reasons. One, widespread access to prostitut…

> One, widespread access to prostitution and its social acceptability. Reading books from earlier centuries, it’s noticeable how common this was and how little anyone seemed to be socially stigmatized by going to a brothel. uh, but: > Two, enforced monogamy. Our current culture is centered on removing restrictions. And as with every market, removing the restrictions on sexual access means the top players get more “re…

No, because they aren’t referring to the same groups. Prostitution was historically only acceptable for men, while women were forced to either have a husband or be celibate. At least, in terms of social acceptability.

Today, the restrictions have more or less been removed for both genders.

Again, not saying it “was better back then”, just pointing out what’s changed.

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