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On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

residentcontrarian.substack.com

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Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#371

Post by nkrisc »

iammisc wrote: post #128
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #17

There is a lot to unpack here, and it is difficult to know where to begin. I had a friend who was a pastor who lamented he didn't like that his yearly board game get-together with his other [often pastor] friends often ended up discussing their dead bedrooms. I have no idea how these dynamics have come to be so common, even taking into account the usual ebbs and flows in relationships. I don't know if this problem oc…

Religious couples tend to have the most fulfilling sex lives. Conservative religious couples have the best: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7060099/Highly-reli... Myself, as a highly conservative married man, my findings confirm the daily mail article, esp. when I look at the sex lives of my married friends who were more libertine in their youth. EDIT: A few theories: 1. My wife is not on birth control, whic…

Your experience is different from many others in a few regards. I assume that either you can afford to continue have more children, or you're no longer capable of conceiving. There are many monogamous married couples in the US who must use hormonal birth control or other contraception simply because they can not afford to raise another (or any) child. Childcare is expensive and very little is subsidized by the government to encourage more people to have children. Even simply giving birth is enough to financially ruin some people, and again the government does very little to subsidize this to encourage more people to have children. In fact, many political candidates run on platforms of doing away with anything that might actually enable families to be able to afford to have children, so it's no surprise at all that many people are using birth control, whether they're married or not.

You seem pretty fortunate to be in a position where you can afford to have unprotected sex with your wife, because many people can't afford that luxury. Perhaps it's no surprise they're depressed with unfulfilling sex lives.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#372

Post by corty »

SketchySeaBeast wrote: post #354
corty wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because supporting depressed people is depressing and often futile. Mental illnesses can be transmissible that way. Also, supporting a depressed person needs lots of time and effort, and while they are depressed they give nothing back except bad vibes.

You're making assumptions that you won't find yourself in the same state one day where you require the selfless help of others.

No, I'm not. While I would appreciate help in such a situation, I can fully understand anyone walking away. Being a bother to people and needy is one of the worst parts of being ill.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#373

Post by hombre_fatal »

benlivengood wrote: post #235
nicoburns wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the best explanation that I've heard for the feeling men have of basic unhappiness without romance and sex is toxic masculinity; the general societal rejection of deep emotional relationships between straight men. Lonely? Make strong friendships! Spend your time with other men who like you and enjoy your company and validate you I'm not sure I buy this. I'm a man who has lots of close friendships (many of which are…

> I'm not sure I buy this. I'm a man who has lots of close friendships (many of which are with women, but some of which are with men), and I still feel like it's not enough and that I want a romantic/sexual partner. A partner is not a replacement for a close circle of friends, but neither is close circle of friends a replacement for a partner. I think the difference is between wants and needs. Aside from a very small…

I wouldn’t be so fast to dismiss it as a want for most people. I would wager most men feel like emasculated failures if they cannot attract a mate when surrounded by single women. It seems unlikely that a large portion of men only view romantic success as a mere cherry on top.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#374

Post by djoldman »

After reading the article, I'm not sure what the main thrust of it is besides, "there are people with relationship problems stemming from one party wanting more sex than the other."

There's a discussion about incels and statistics cited, as well as an appeal for sympathy towards those with these difficulties.

Is there something I'm missing?

I think some of the language isn't quite right but it easily passes considering the spirit of good intent.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#375

Post by slg »

dudul wrote: post #350
slg wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making a different argument now that her perceived reality is not actual reality. You originally asked how someone could reconcile the two quoted ideas as if they were contradictory. I pointed out how they could coexist. Regarding her perceived reality, we really need more information than college graduation rates, violent deaths, or any of the stats mentioned by OP. For example if every woman is graduating w…

> You are making a different argument now that her perceived reality is not actual reality. I never said that. I said that what she perceived as actual reality (she didn't seem to disagree with all the points brought up by her partner) should be seen as evidence that maybe the goal has been reached at least in some domains. However, she seems to just brush it off and instead say that these evidence that the goal may…

>I said that what she perceived as actual reality (she didn't seem to disagree with all the points brought up by her partner) should be seen as evidence that maybe the goal has been reached at least in some domains.

You didn't say that in you original comment. Maybe that was your intent, but it didn't come across due to the specific portions of the original comment you quoted.

>As for income disparities, as long as women are not prevented from graduating with nuclear engineering degrees and men are not prevented from studying English, I don't think equality of outcome is interesting. As long as equality of opportunity is achieved.

More women graduating from college is not evidence of "equality of opportunity" because the opportunity people are advocating for is some combination of self-determination and a good quality of life that are near impossible to measure. They end goal is not college graduation. No one here is advocating for "equality of outcome".

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#376

Post by at_a_remove »

standardUser wrote: post #369

There are some real solutions to be had here... 1) Decriminalize sex work. 2) Implement a national healthcare system that fully covers mental health services, including regular therapy sessions. 3) Expand sex education to include more diverse types of sex and relationships, including non-monogamy. These won't solve the problem. They will absolutely make the problem less severe.

We have plenty of places decriminalizing sex work. What they are not decriminalizing, however, is purchasing sex work. Both are required for the first item on your list to do anything. And it that is going to require a lot of nuance, too. I recall seeing someone reacting to a post by a former sex worker who lamented how these men had been "raping her body." If that is considered a valid viewpoint, then even more work must be done at the decriminalization level, otherwise you will have seller's remorse hanging over someone with a very long statute of limitations.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#377

Post by toyg »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #363
toyg wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a function of massive income inequality across countries, though. Fix that, and the incentive for trafficking disappears.

But fixing income inequality would presumably reduce the number of women willing to sell sex, so you're back to square 1.

That also depends on other factors. When being a prostitute means being a criminal, obviously it's not desirable.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#378

Post by dragonwriter »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #240

These issues are far more serious than is known and commenters saying “too bad, you don’t deserve to date someone” really don’t understand how ineffective this approach is. You can’t just shame tens of thousands of men into accepting a substandard life. Disclaimer: I am not making any ethical judgments here, just observing. This problem didn’t really exist before for three reasons. One, widespread access to prostitut…

> One, widespread access to prostitution and its social acceptability. Reading books from earlier centuries, it’s noticeable how common this was and how little anyone seemed to be socially stigmatized by going to a brothel.

uh, but:

> Two, enforced monogamy. Our current culture is centered on removing restrictions. And as with every market, removing the restrictions on sexual access means the top players get more “resources” while the bottom get none. Monogamy was historically the solution to this.

You do realize that the portrait of historical norms you present in these two paragraphs are diametrically opposed, right?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#379

Post by monksy »

giantg2 wrote: post #3

"It’s 2021, and it would be pretty hard to find someone who would come out and say that women deserve to be treated worse than men by default, and similarly difficult to find someone believes men shouldn’t have rights. In that sense at least we are all feminists and men’s rights activists, but nearly 100% of everyone reading this would have felt some emotional recoil from being called at least one of those two things…

> difficult to find someone believes men shouldn’t have rights.

There are quite a lot of people who would try to argue that mean don't deserve rights.

"men need a curfew"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD8cwX6g3do

MRAs being counter protested: https://www.vice.com/en/article/8gd9y4/who-do-mens-rights-ac... (and this article that handwavy justifies a counter-protest)

Speech being protested and threatened: https://thevarsity.ca/2012/11/17/arrest-assaults-overshadow-...

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#380

Post by theropost »

It must be confusing to be a boy these days with all the conflicting messaging on how they should or should not be. The expectations of men are conflicting, confusing, uneven, and ever-changing. Equality is thrown around, with many exceptions across the board. Men simply bite their tongues in society, and are expected to do so without much complaint. Men are told to share their feelings, but then ignored or shamed when they try. It's a very confusing time for men/boys - I have a daughter and a son. I feel like my daughter can do anything, and will be fine in the future. I can't same the same for my son these days, I worry the paths he will have to choose.
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