On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#321

Post by UncleMeat » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

vimy wrote: post #97

edgyquant wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen this thrown around by Jordan Peterson and his fans but I’ve never met anyone, regardless of how crazy their ideology was, advocate for equality of outcomes outside of basic necessities. I’m convinced it’s a strawman.

Progressives advocate abolishing advanced classes in high school because “they have too many white and Asian students”. Several schools have done so. That is equality of outcome in practice.

> Several schools have done so.

Every time I see a news article about this, they aren't being honest about what is happening. My high school in particular is often in the news for this reason and the reactionary articles are universally BS.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#322

Post by silicon2401 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #28

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy in life is their partner then something is wrong When you get older, a partner (or children) are important to keep you going. Your body will fail you. Your mind will fail you. Your life will end and (statistically) it will be a long downward slope. Binding yourself to the right person keeps that slope more e…

While I love being in a relationship, you go too far to imply that all humans need a relationship. There are many people in history who have lived on their own, even as hermits, and been happy that way. Perhaps it's not the right lifestyle for you, but your lifestyle isn't the right fit for everyone else either.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#323

Post by etripe » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

edgyquant wrote: post #40

throwawayboise wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or equality of opportunity vs equality in outcomes.

I’ve seen this thrown around by Jordan Peterson and his fans but I’ve never met anyone, regardless of how crazy their ideology was, advocate for equality of outcomes outside of basic necessities. I’m convinced it’s a strawman.

Have you never seen people decrying unequal representation in, say, tech? I've seen plenty of people make that claim and expect the distribution of groups to match the distribution in the general population. That's equality of outcome, not opportunity. It's also only really possible in two scenarios:

A. Everyone regardless of demographic has the same opportunities, talent and interest in tech

B. You force people into positions they don't want and force people out that do want them

The same goes for education, nursing, construction, sewage, fire fighting...

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#324

Post by Secretmapper » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

didibus wrote: post #255

> In that sense at least we are all feminists and men’s rights activists, but nearly 100% of everyone reading this would have felt some emotional recoil from being called at least one of those two things. Why? I guess I fall outside that range. Do most people actually find themselves having emotional recoil here? I personally feel very much a pro-women and pro-men rights supporter. Do most people not feel like that?…

It's the label, as both of the labels sadly have very negative connotations now due to echo chambers.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#325

Post by xenihn » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

tonyp2121 wrote: post #101

the_jeremy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having a romantic ... relationship is not a requirement for a happy life Do you think having friends is a requirement for a happy life? It's not strictly necessary, but they are a positive factor, and most people will not be happy entirely devoid of friendship. Having a partner is a friend you commit to and are closer with than other friends (generalization, sure). I have friends who I would not support through dep…

Why would you not support your friends through depression?

It's important for you to understand the difference between actual clinical depression, which is fully treatable with medication, and depression as a symptom of personality disorders, which is not.

I don't know if you have ever dealt with the latter, or if perhaps you are part of that group, but encountering someone who is can be enough to turn you away from ever potentially being involved with anyone displaying depressive symptoms. There's just too much risk to one's personal life and well-being if they end up being the "bad" kind of depressed person, and not the "good" kind.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#326

Post by tengbretson » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

toyg wrote: post #281

hn8788 wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't work out as well as it sounds. Unsuprisingly, the amount of women willing to have sex with strangers for money is relatively low. Studies have shown that legalizing prostitution increases the rate of human trafficking to meet the greater demand. https://orgs.law.harvard.edu/lids/2014/06/12/does-legalized-...

That's a function of massive income inequality across countries, though. Fix that, and the incentive for trafficking disappears.

Let's start with the assumption that we will have to solve this problem while under the constraints of actual reality.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#327

Post by thelean12 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

tachyonbeam wrote: post #43

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. It is for many, many, many people.

That's one bitter truth about life: (almost) everyone needs some amount of physical intimacy to be happy, but it's not something anyone is entitled to. Those of us who have access to that are privileged. I agree with the author though. IMO the existence of so many "incels" is some expression of a real societal problem. Many young men are suffering, and we don't acknowledge their suffering as genuine. We just tell the…

> if you can't get women, it's entirely your fault

I'm curious, and this will probably be too curt but I am honestly trying to figure it out: Whose fault is it? Because incels believe it's the women's fault, and this message is the opposite.

It doesn't seem productive to tell them that it's society's fault or some other external thing. What are they supposed to do about that?

Most men that I know, including myself, function better when there's something tangible to work on. Lose weight, hit the gym, learn to lower my ego, listen better, practice small talk, learn about fashion, etc.

I think there's a healthy way to "blame" yourself. Or if you want a nicer way to put it: to be able to have honest criticism of yourself. After all, if you can't fix it, what's the point?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#328

Post by landryraccoon » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

silicon2401 wrote: post #310

landryraccoon wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man this thread sure must be depressing if you're single. Single? That's your problem, that your single. Go get a relationship and be happy! Way to dogpile on people when they're down. I say enjoy being single. If a relationship happens, good for you, but don't listen to people that say you're damaged / worse off / going down the drain because you're single. They're just jealous you can travel and play video games wh…

> Way to dogpile on people when they're down. > They're just jealous you can travel and play video games whenever you want. =) This comment comes off defensive and hypocritical to me, rather than contributing to the conversation. You're basically saying we shouldn't talk about good things if some people don't have those good things; and also screw people with good things because they're actually jealous of the have-n…

To be frank, you response sounds a bit more defensive than mine.

Are you arguing that if someone claims that it's possible to be perfectly content and happy while single, that that somehow undermines the happiness you've found with your partner, as if the mere claim that contentment can be found without a partner invalidates the fact that you're happy with your partner?

I can easily read your response as saying something akin to:

"You're single and happy? Nah. You only think you're happy because you haven't experienced true happiness. Only partnered people can truly experience the incomparable joy that I have found, unlike those benighted singles."

You're happy with your partner. Good for you! That's awesome and amazing. But there's no reason to use that happiness as a reason to look down on other people.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#329

Post by vb6sp6 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

at_a_remove wrote: post #150

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #17

There is a lot to unpack here, and it is difficult to know where to begin. I had a friend who was a pastor who lamented he didn't like that his yearly board game get-together with his other [often pastor] friends often ended up discussing their dead bedrooms. I have no idea how these dynamics have come to be so common, even taking into account the usual ebbs and flows in relationships. I don't know if this problem oc…

I don't know a ton of married men but every last one of them has managed to let me know one way or another that their sex lives are essentially over. All of them. And it all seems to follow this cliche that people will scream at you does not exist.

Are these people explicitly telling you this? If a bunch of my married friends got together and started bitching about their sex lives, I might nod along in agreement even if my sex life isn't over.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#330

Post by usbline » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

jnwatson wrote: post #230

usbline wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is a social problem and has nothing to do with nature.

Humans are social animals. The size of our brains, ability to use language, are all "nature's" solutions to social problems. That women are deep down attracted to men of status is hard-wired, and the result of thousands of years of natural selection. The nexus among status-seeking behavior, current economic realities, and the changing marketplace of dating, is the primary driver behind "incels". In other words, natur…

>status-seeking behavior

not nature

>current economic realities

not nature

>the changing marketplace of dating

again, not nature