On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#311

Post by Trasmatta » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

Ntrails wrote: post #283

Trasmatta wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a bizarre (and imo destructive, and toxic) idea that seems to be running through tech especially that devotion to your partner is rooted in "jealousy" I feel like you're responding to a different argument than the one that was posed above. They weren't saying that a deep devotion to your partner is bad at all. They were saying that if you're miserable every moment you're not with your partner, there is lik…

Actively not enjoying single life is a reasonable state of being. Not desirable, but not a mental health issue. Being measurably happier with a partner in your life is a positive outcome, indeed is one we should all strive for (or why bother)

But what I'm responding to is the idea that if you're only ever happy when your partner is there, there's likely something wrong. I didn't even really bring up single life.

> indeed is one we should all strive for (or why bother)

What do you mean by this? Why bother with what?

(As an aside, I actually don't think that being in a relationship is something that all people need to strive for.)

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#312

Post by Quarrelsome » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #140

Essentially, what we have right now in the sexual marketplace echoes what we have in the economy... a lot of the sex is being had by a small fraction of the people. The need for sex is perhaps as high as the need for money but nobody talks about this crushing inequality, perhaps because there is no practical way to “tax and redistribute” sex. The problem is worse for men since a man needs a certain set of skills and…

I would argue that recent switches to a "pick up style" of dating app (e.g. Tindr) exacerbates this problem.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#313

Post by lurquer » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #47

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

EDIT to add: the best explanation that I've heard for the feeling men have of basic unhappiness without romance and sex is toxic masculinity; the general societal rejection of deep emotional relationships between straight men. Lonely? Make strong friendships! Spend your time with other men who like you and enjoy your company and validate you. A partner is not a replacement for the natural circle of close friends huma…

Even the most logical and unemotional person has to grapple with the pon farr every now and again.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#314

Post by schnevets » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

MattGaiser wrote: post #288

schnevets wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am frequently surprised by the number of "dead bedrooms" I know about among friends, and I sincerely believe the problem is the western world's secretly coy perception of sex. There is a superficial surface level that is extremely wrong (for example, Successful people have sex, the most successful people have the hottest sex with the hottest partners; Sex isn't about planning it's about letting the desire overcome…

> I am frequently surprised by the number of "dead bedrooms" I know about among friends I originally thought they were mostly an old people thing, but I am hearing more stories about it from friends. And we are mid 20s.

It was a trend that began in my mid 20s as well. I have also noticed women are more inclined to voice frustrations than my male friends. I guess I became more approachable after proposing to my now-wife (and the things I hear are G-rated compared to the things I hear secondhand from my wife)

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#315

Post by TameAntelope » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #136

The average man will go through a period of involuntary celibacy and I don’t believe this is a new thing but we’re now good at labeling. History shows that 80% of women reproduced compared to only 40% of men! https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2012... (Note not sure the primary source on this stat, but the general idea is that polygamy was once common leading to fewer men reproducing) We’re doing…

I know we joke about it a lot, but I think there's a serious case to be made that the Internet's ability to connect groups of previously unconnected people might end up literally ending humanity, or at least severely setting humanity back from a human rights standpoint.

"Incels" are one example of this that you're pointing out here, where a group of people who've always existed without name are now able to group together and create a feedback loop amongst themselves that results in literally mass murder.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#316

Post by bloak » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

twobitshifter wrote: post #136

The average man will go through a period of involuntary celibacy and I don’t believe this is a new thing but we’re now good at labeling. History shows that 80% of women reproduced compared to only 40% of men! https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/women-who-stray/2012... (Note not sure the primary source on this stat, but the general idea is that polygamy was once common leading to fewer men reproducing) We’re doing…

"History shows that 80% of women reproduced compared to only 40% of men!"

That doesn't necessarily imply polygamy, and it doesn't necessarily imply "incels". Imagine a society in which women get married at age 16 and typically die during childbirth before they reach the age of 32, and men get married at age 32, if they live that long, which most of them don't, and then get married again when the first wife dies during childbirth. I'm not saying that's how it was, but some societies were a bit like that and I think you could probably get the 80% and 40% numbers with a set-up something like that.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#317

Post by Kye » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

colanderman wrote: post #154

I feel a common issue with such "dead bedroom" discussions is the seeming lack of capacity of some parties (including some prominent toplevel comments here) to understand how deep a need for sex many people have. To think sex can be replaced with "strong friendships" is laughable to anyone who actually feels a strong desire for sex. The dead bedroom situations I've seen with my friends (M->F equally as well as F->M)…

Strong friendships can involve lots of sex, but it seems like people outside queer communities have a harder time with that.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#318

Post by plus » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

Ntrails wrote: post #283

Trasmatta wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a bizarre (and imo destructive, and toxic) idea that seems to be running through tech especially that devotion to your partner is rooted in "jealousy" I feel like you're responding to a different argument than the one that was posed above. They weren't saying that a deep devotion to your partner is bad at all. They were saying that if you're miserable every moment you're not with your partner, there is lik…

Actively not enjoying single life is a reasonable state of being. Not desirable, but not a mental health issue. Being measurably happier with a partner in your life is a positive outcome, indeed is one we should all strive for (or why bother)

Being miserable whenever you aren't around your partner does rise to the level of a mental health issue, I feel. You aren't going to be around your partner 24/7/365, and it's not healthy or reasonable to spend that away time in misery.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#319

Post by seryoiupfurds » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

If you are lonely, your feelings are invalid and you are guilty of toxic masculinity.

Can you imagine why lonely people might not be receptive to this argument?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#320

Post by slg » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

dudul wrote: post #246

slg wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't contradictory. One is an assessment of the currently perceived reality and one is a stated goal. The mindset is simply that we haven't reached the goal yet.

But the "currently perceived reality" (eg the fact that men are now behind in terms of college graduation) is exactly what you would see once you've reached the goal. By saying "well, they were so far ahead they have no excuse to not be better anyway" you're basically saying that you will reject potential evidence that the goal has been reached. Maybe I misunderstood the GF's point, but it just sounds like such a lac…

You are making a different argument now that her perceived reality is not actual reality. You originally asked how someone could reconcile the two quoted ideas as if they were contradictory. I pointed out how they could coexist.

Regarding her perceived reality, we really need more information than college graduation rates, violent deaths, or any of the stats mentioned by OP. For example if every woman is graduating with an English degree and every man is graduating with a nuclear engineering degree, more women can be graduating and men can still have a much higher mean income among post college age people.

Whether the goal has been reached is clearly a matter of debate. It isn't unreasonable for some people to think we haven't reached it yet.