Efficiency Is the Enemy • Hacker News Board

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#101

Post by periheli0n » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

allenu wrote: post #79

Something that I've noticed recently is that in my work life, I'm finding there's more bureaucracy in what I do, mostly in the name of "efficiency". When you encounter a problem to solve, there's often a process already defined that is most efficient (or at least thought to be most efficient), when accomplishing tasks, there's a pre-defined way of laying out the tasks (i.e. tickets), updating them, reviewing them, an…

Reminds me of Neal Stephenson’s “Snow Crash”, where he described the ancient world being so stuck in a set of fixed algorithms for how to do things that made any progress impossible. Only the Babylonian Confusion fixed this deadlock by destroying the ability to communicate (and exchange algorithms). Highly recommended read.

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#102

Post by throwaway6734 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

spoonjim wrote: post #80

mmcgaha wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I work for a company that has been in the same family for over one hundred years. The CEO started work there at sixteen and has worked in every department in the company. I am not saying that he wants to see people sitting around on his dollar, but he staffs appropriately and genuinely cares about the long-term health of his company and employees. Companies like this exist all over the country; they are not glamorous…

I spoke to a family owned business tycoon from South America and he was convinced that publicly owned companies are doomed in the long run. His rough quote (my Spanish was not fantastic) was something like, “I’m managing this company for the next 10 generations and your country’s companies are managed for the next quarter. Which of us will be here in 100 years?”

What's the market cap of his company?

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#103

Post by quixoticelixer- » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #90

enkid wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this mean? I'm pretty sure the main alternative- China - is both over regulated and is very bureaucratic.

You might be surprised. Enforcement is certainly draconian, but there are not absurdly many regulations, and it is also surprisingly (to westerners) Feudal - personal relationships and high agency in a narrowly defined area are very important to the system functioning.

Sorry but you can't be serious that a feudal system is actually a good idea

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#104

Post by Litost » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:42 PM UTC

This quote “You’re efficient when you do something with minimum waste. And you’re effective when you’re doing the right something.” reminds me of a Systems Thinking talk Russell Ackoff gave a long time ago [1] where he talks about the difference between doing "the right thing wrong" and the "wrong thing right" and getting more efficient at doing the wrong thing obviously might not be optimal :). This is actually a concept that Peter Drucker came up with, but I've not managed to find a good link to that, I'd be interested if anyone has?

The whole talk is quite interesting, but I've linked to the relevant segment: [1] https://youtu.be/OqEeIG8aPPk?t=591

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#105

Post by throw_nbvc1234 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

rcfaj7obqrkayhn wrote: post #93

allenu wrote: post #79

Something that I've noticed recently is that in my work life, I'm finding there's more bureaucracy in what I do, mostly in the name of "efficiency". When you encounter a problem to solve, there's often a process already defined that is most efficient (or at least thought to be most efficient), when accomplishing tasks, there's a pre-defined way of laying out the tasks (i.e. tickets), updating them, reviewing them, an…

also feel like these processes are there so when the crap hits the fan, there's a trail to see whom to point the fingers at. everyone is just trying to cover their own butts

Or (maybe same idea just phrased a different way) shit hit the fan in the past and these were put in place to "prevent it" from occurring again. Postmortem driven development.

Do you really need to worry about someone making the same mistake again? Answer to that question probably depends mostly on the type of organization (size, complexity, turnover, ect..) you're working for.

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#106

Post by periheli0n » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

rcfaj7obqrkayhn wrote: post #93

allenu wrote: post #79

Something that I've noticed recently is that in my work life, I'm finding there's more bureaucracy in what I do, mostly in the name of "efficiency". When you encounter a problem to solve, there's often a process already defined that is most efficient (or at least thought to be most efficient), when accomplishing tasks, there's a pre-defined way of laying out the tasks (i.e. tickets), updating them, reviewing them, an…

also feel like these processes are there so when the crap hits the fan, there's a trail to see whom to point the fingers at. everyone is just trying to cover their own butts

Correct. That’s what I tell newcomers in my org during onboarding, when they start to wonder why there are so many seemingly pointless bureaucratic processes: it’s all about arse covering.

This is by far the best justification for bureaucracy.

It’s also a sign that many things went wrong previously, since every rule has been created because somebody screwed up.

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#107

Post by spoonjim » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

throwaway6734 wrote: post #102

spoonjim wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spoke to a family owned business tycoon from South America and he was convinced that publicly owned companies are doomed in the long run. His rough quote (my Spanish was not fantastic) was something like, “I’m managing this company for the next 10 generations and your country’s companies are managed for the next quarter. Which of us will be here in 100 years?”

What's the market cap of his company?

$1-10b

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#108

Post by betwixthewires » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:46 PM UTC

The title is a little sensational, and that is a good thing. Sensational titles usually do one of two things: clickbait, or playfully intrigue the target and deliver something in its vein.

This actually made me think about somewhere I might be wrong. I just got the book the article references and I'm going to read it. I've always been about efficiency, and still am where things can be automated. But the idea that you're less effective if you cram your life with tasks is intriguing, and maybe a little enticing. I'd like to explore the concept further.

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#109

Post by periheli0n » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:47 PM UTC

throwaway6734 wrote: post #102

spoonjim wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spoke to a family owned business tycoon from South America and he was convinced that publicly owned companies are doomed in the long run. His rough quote (my Spanish was not fantastic) was something like, “I’m managing this company for the next 10 generations and your country’s companies are managed for the next quarter. Which of us will be here in 100 years?”

What's the market cap of his company?

Another way to put this is: where would you rather make a long-term investment?

Re: Efficiency Is the Enemy

#110

Post by allenu » Tue, May 04, 2021, 6:48 PM UTC

rcfaj7obqrkayhn wrote: post #93

allenu wrote: post #79

Something that I've noticed recently is that in my work life, I'm finding there's more bureaucracy in what I do, mostly in the name of "efficiency". When you encounter a problem to solve, there's often a process already defined that is most efficient (or at least thought to be most efficient), when accomplishing tasks, there's a pre-defined way of laying out the tasks (i.e. tickets), updating them, reviewing them, an…

also feel like these processes are there so when the crap hits the fan, there's a trail to see whom to point the fingers at. everyone is just trying to cover their own butts

I think there's low-key some of that, as a sort of way to "pass the buck", i.e. somebody who owns some outcome thinks, I don't like how the output of this system, let me go upstream and talk to this team to see if they can take on some new process to improve the output I care about.

A lot of this is also just "good intentions". Somebody encounters a problem and thinks "I want to prevent this problem, so I am going to propose this process to avoid it". It works if you have a small number of these processes, but once it gets to a large number, now you're frozen by bureaucracy. Every time you do something, you need to look up the exact process to get it done.