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On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

residentcontrarian.substack.com

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Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#151

Post by dudul »

waythro123123 wrote: post #52

My pet theory is that the developed or post-industrialized world is becoming increasingly two-classed. I have had the privilege of having a decent job (being so-called "economically desirable") and decent education and was able to find someone who I think loves me for who I am, for some definition of "I am". That being said, the "incel" problem concerns me. I think the existence of this entire class of individuals sh…

> Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be.

I genuinely don't understand how someone can reconcile these in their head.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#152

Post by sudosysgen »

landryraccoon wrote: post #132
whatshisface wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird to try and explain this from a sterile alien-studying-humans perspective, but since that's the HN theme I'll do my best. Marriage and having dependents carries with it a lot of economic cost. By revealed choice theory, that implies it has significant benefits, or else nobody would ever do it.

This is counterintuitive. The obvious benefit of marriage is producing children. Producing children is extremely costly for both parents. This is true both in animals and humans - you would generally not say that rearing children is good for the health of the parents. It probably brings emotional benefits to the parents (which it would have to, otherwise they wouldn't do it), but there's no reason to assume that coup…

You can produce children without marriage and a lot of people don't get married to have children.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#153

Post by chdaniel »

torben-friis wrote: post #2

>I can choose to pity or hate him, but having chosen I can’t pretend the choice didn’t exist; it’s something I had to do. I've had to face similar situations in my family life, and this part really resonated with me. It's an extremely eloquent way of capturing something I've never been able to put into words. Thank you for that.

I didn't really understand that part. Mind re-wording it in an easier manner for me?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#154

Post by colanderman »

I feel a common issue with such "dead bedroom" discussions is the seeming lack of capacity of some parties (including some prominent toplevel comments here) to understand how deep a need for sex many people have. To think sex can be replaced with "strong friendships" is laughable to anyone who actually feels a strong desire for sex.

The dead bedroom situations I've seen with my friends (M->F equally as well as F->M) are always the result of one party being incapable of understanding the other's desire for sex. This leads them when pressed to try approaches such as, substituting "being nicer" for sex, trying therapy to reduce their partner's sex drive, or just forgetting about the problem because they are unable to sympathize with it. Ideas such as initiating sex more often or opening up the relationship either don't occur to them, are vehemently opposed, or forgotten about.

No-one is entitled to sex. But individuals in a sexually-exclusive relationship are entitled to sympathy, action, and compromise from their partner to bridge severe differences in sexuality, just the same as any other sticking point in a relationship.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#155

Post by dragonwriter »

landryraccoon wrote: post #132
whatshisface wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird to try and explain this from a sterile alien-studying-humans perspective, but since that's the HN theme I'll do my best. Marriage and having dependents carries with it a lot of economic cost. By revealed choice theory, that implies it has significant benefits, or else nobody would ever do it.

This is counterintuitive. The obvious benefit of marriage is producing children. Producing children is extremely costly for both parents. This is true both in animals and humans - you would generally not say that rearing children is good for the health of the parents. It probably brings emotional benefits to the parents (which it would have to, otherwise they wouldn't do it), but there's no reason to assume that coup…

> The obvious benefit of marriage is producing children.

No. Marriage doesn’t produce children.

Marriage can provide social obligations relating to the support of children, though. (It also provides social obligations of mutual support between spouses.)

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#156

Post by 74d-fe6-2c6 »

mattgreenrocks wrote: post #134
74d-fe6-2c6 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [obviously misguided] purity culture As far as I understand it celibacy of men devoted to religion or spiritual endeavours is not about "purity" but total focus. And I don't think that is misguided. It's just very resolute.

That was in reference to the evangelical version of those ideas, where the body was inherently sinful. > And I don't think that is misguided. It's just very resolute. Agree. Celibacy is difficult but can teach much.

It's not my cup of tea. But I don't like the general "celibacy is bad and turns men into criminal pedophiles" agenda.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#157

Post by ratww »

Nursie wrote: post #123
thepasswordis wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah man I don't think I would classify a committed relationship where partners end up missing their partner when they're gone as "codependent". And honestly this whole trend of laymen trying to psychoanalyze people with whatever toxic psychobabble their read on twitter is getting out of hand. Codependence is when two people have some unhealthy trait that is reinforced by the other person's unhealthy trait. From wiki…

> Yeah man I don't think I would classify a committed relationship where partners end up missing their partner when they're gone as "codependent". > I spent every day without her more or less miserable This is a bit more than "missing" them.

This phrase is kinda ambiguous.

I still don't understand if by that sentence the article author means he was miserable before, or if this means he misses her after just one day of her being away. "Spent" is in the past, so I assumed it's the former.

I have the impression that people are talking about different things in some replies.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#158

Post by textgel »

Loughla wrote: post #109
edgyquant wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen this thrown around by Jordan Peterson and his fans but I’ve never met anyone, regardless of how crazy their ideology was, advocate for equality of outcomes outside of basic necessities. I’m convinced it’s a strawman.

I don't know why you're being down-voted, you're right. I haven't met anyone, even in the insanely left and progressive university circles that I run in, who advocate for equality in outcome. It's equality in opportunity that's important. It's about letting 'your freedom as an individual to choose your own destiny' actually be 'free' from the start and not constrained by social mores, ingrained biases or discriminati…

It's a core belief of progressivism; those who claim it isn't know it is but are interested in protecting a movement that gives them a means of attacking those they dislike.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#159

Post by mschuster91 »

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> Lonely? Make strong friendships! Spend your time with other men who like you and enjoy your company and validate you. A partner is not a replacement for the natural circle of close friends humans are supposed to have. I'll be honest that I'm not the best at doing this, to my own detriment, but I think it's basically the solution.

I agree with you in that this is the best solution, but modern employment is making that hard. When you have a 1h single-way commute, an 8 hour regular work day with an hour of lunch break, another hour of "expected" overtime and "expected" taking part in socializing events to "fit to corporate culture", you lose 11-13 hours each day to work and are probably exhausted. Add another one and half hours to make breakfast and dinner and 8 hours of sleep, that doesn't leave much space for any activities. And God may help you if you're one of the persons who has to take on a second or third job to make rent.

Boomers always complain my generation are "snowflakes" and depression ain't real... yeah no. Depression is real and these people had the luxury of being able to afford two kids, a house and a decent car on one person's salary without ridiculous overtime. Times have changed and not for the better.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#160

Post by salusinarduis »

thepasswordis wrote: post #67
benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

>This is basically a red flag for any relationship. No it isn't. My grandparents, who were married for 60 years had this mentality. My wife's grandparents, who were married for a similar amount of time, also shared this mentality. My wife's parents still share this mentality (and are obviously completely devoted to one another, which you will notice if you spend about 5 seconds with them). My parents divorced, which…

thank you for stepping up and saying this
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