On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#101

Post by tonyp2121 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

the_jeremy wrote: post #35

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> having a romantic ... relationship is not a requirement for a happy life Do you think having friends is a requirement for a happy life? It's not strictly necessary, but they are a positive factor, and most people will not be happy entirely devoid of friendship. Having a partner is a friend you commit to and are closer with than other friends (generalization, sure). I have friends who I would not support through dep…

Why would you not support your friends through depression?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#102

Post by 2lwxxtj » Tue, May 04, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

tachyonbeam wrote: post #43

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. It is for many, many, many people.

That's one bitter truth about life: (almost) everyone needs some amount of physical intimacy to be happy, but it's not something anyone is entitled to. Those of us who have access to that are privileged. I agree with the author though. IMO the existence of so many "incels" is some expression of a real societal problem. Many young men are suffering, and we don't acknowledge their suffering as genuine. We just tell the…

>That's one bitter truth about life: (almost) everyone needs some amount of physical intimacy to be happy, but it's not something anyone is entitled to.

That's not a truth about life, it's an opinion.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#103

Post by gopalv » Tue, May 04, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

Supermancho wrote: post #28

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy in life is their partner then something is wrong When you get older, a partner (or children) are important to keep you going. Your body will fail you. Your mind will fail you. Your life will end and (statistically) it will be a long downward slope. Binding yourself to the right person keeps that slope more e…

> People who think being alone is great are right,

I think the critical part is the "only thing" in the quote.

The same thought expressed as "she makes me happy" and "she's the only thing that makes me happy" are different because of the implied loss of everything (that you will give up everything else that could make you happy to have this person stay).

> until some point after the slide begins that has slowly eaten away at your own ability.

I'd say that is pragmatic, but a very selfish thought.

My parents were taught that by their society ("successful kids" == "retirement plan"), but they didn't follow through with that thought during our upbringing - if anything, they thought they were paying it forward.

For an american comparison, the silent generation of America were a lot like my parents in their attitude towards the future (bright, but built for the kids).

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#104

Post by toomuchtodo » Tue, May 04, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #88

burlesona wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The correlations are clear but causality less so. What if it’s not marriage that makes men happier, less prone to crime, and longer-lived - rather it is that women select for partners who are happier, less prone to crime, and healthier?

It's weird to try and explain this from a sterile alien-studying-humans perspective, but since that's the HN theme I'll do my best. Marriage and having dependents carries with it a lot of economic cost. By revealed choice theory, that implies it has significant benefits, or else nobody would ever do it.

I would be interested in a citation that those entering into marriages and child rearing are aware of the economic costs and are able to enumerate the benefits prior to the events, or if its look back justification after the fact. If you dig, I think you'll find most folks were not aware of the economic and opportunity costs of children, as well as the work involved in maintaining a healthy relationship with a party for an extended period of time.

(removed a bunch of pew research citations that made the comment unwieldy; happy to cite for those interested)

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#105

Post by Trasmatta » Tue, May 04, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

thepasswordis wrote: post #67

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

>This is basically a red flag for any relationship. No it isn't. My grandparents, who were married for 60 years had this mentality. My wife's grandparents, who were married for a similar amount of time, also shared this mentality. My wife's parents still share this mentality (and are obviously completely devoted to one another, which you will notice if you spend about 5 seconds with them). My parents divorced, which…

> There is a bizarre (and imo destructive, and toxic) idea that seems to be running through tech especially that devotion to your partner is rooted in "jealousy"

I feel like you're responding to a different argument than the one that was posed above. They weren't saying that a deep devotion to your partner is bad at all. They were saying that if you're miserable every moment you're not with your partner, there is likely something wrong that needs to be addressed.

Being able to be comfortable and happy even when your partner isn't around doesn't preclude you from having a devoted long term relationship. In fact, that feels like a recipe for a healthier long term relationship. Otherwise you can end up with codependency or separation anxiety.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#106

Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 04, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

scarmig wrote: post #46

Pfhreak wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the flip side, however, no one owes you companionship or a relationship (platonic or not). If you are struggling to fulfill that need, it's on you to improve yourself through building skills, seeking therapy, finding appropriate medications, or whatever else. Pushing the blame outwards to some other group for not bending to fulfill your needs is a real problematic stance.

On the flip flip side, no one owes anyone anything (except bodily integrity). You aren't entitled to a partner who does a certain number of hours of chores; you aren't entitled to a specific or any job title; you aren't entitled to a particular lifestyle; you aren't entitled to respect and admiration. That doesn't mean the only valid approach is to criticize people who systemically have a harder time reaching those t…

[deleted]

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#107

Post by carlisle_ » Tue, May 04, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

I really like this post because it exudes nuance. So many problems are boiled down to terse summaries that are barely accurate when examining details.

People being hateful and violent are a problem. More of a problem are the conditions that push people in this direction. When presenting the underlying cause, people push back and instead focus on scapegoating or minimizing.

This problem occurs in engineering all the time too. We accrue "tech debt" and when it bites us we're quick to blame incompetence or bad luck. Nobody wants to hear that the problem is because we have to "waste time" working on hardly visible components that don't change anything except "down the road."

The problem is the same now. We blame "bad apples" and "bad days" instead of blaming our own culture and society and undertaking the effort to improve it. We try to make the world fit our own perspectives instead of critically examining our biases. We outright lie to ourselves, and I'm frankly sick of it.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#108

Post by slver » Tue, May 04, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

> This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy in life is their partner then something is wrong.

Vast majority of people are only happy when they're in a relationship and have a circle of friends. We've evolved this way. If you have no friends, you focus on your partner to get this social interaction.

When you have no friends, no partner, then you turn to poor substitutes for social engagement, like online forums. If you ask me that's the red flag (using Internet a lot).

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#109

Post by Loughla » Tue, May 04, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

edgyquant wrote: post #40

throwawayboise wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or equality of opportunity vs equality in outcomes.

I’ve seen this thrown around by Jordan Peterson and his fans but I’ve never met anyone, regardless of how crazy their ideology was, advocate for equality of outcomes outside of basic necessities. I’m convinced it’s a strawman.

I don't know why you're being down-voted, you're right. I haven't met anyone, even in the insanely left and progressive university circles that I run in, who advocate for equality in outcome. It's equality in opportunity that's important. It's about letting 'your freedom as an individual to choose your own destiny' actually be 'free' from the start and not constrained by social mores, ingrained biases or discrimination, and/or other external factors.

The freedom in outcomes argument is 100% a strawman used by far right pop culture icons to drum up views and clicks.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#110

Post by thepasswordis » Tue, May 04, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

NickM wrote: post #95

thepasswordis wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is basically a red flag for any relationship. No it isn't. My grandparents, who were married for 60 years had this mentality. My wife's grandparents, who were married for a similar amount of time, also shared this mentality. My wife's parents still share this mentality (and are obviously completely devoted to one another, which you will notice if you spend about 5 seconds with them). My parents divorced, which…

I would argue that a high level of devotion is not the same thing as codependency. I'm not sure you and OP are actually disagreeing with each other here. It's entirely possible to have an enduring, meaningful, devoted, monogamous relationship that brings a great deal of happiness to both partners without that relationship being a requirement for the people involved to experience any amount of happiness or fulfillment…

Yeah man I don't think I would classify a committed relationship where partners end up missing their partner when they're gone as "codependent". And honestly this whole trend of laymen trying to psychoanalyze people with whatever toxic psychobabble their read on twitter is getting out of hand.

Codependence is when two people have some unhealthy trait that is reinforced by the other person's unhealthy trait. From wikipedia:

>Codependency is a concept that attempts to characterize imbalanced relationships where one person enables another person's addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.

That is not the same as "I get sad when my wife is gone because she is my life partner".