What nobody says about startup moms • Hacker News Board

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#151

Post by khawkins » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:13 PM UTC

wcarss wrote: post #141

khawkins wrote: post #139

The author makes a lot of good points until the last paragraph: >We can’t expect more women to succeed in the startup world until we’re able to talk honestly about how much harder startups are for those who want to spend a lot of time with their kids...We’ll never reach our potential as female founders until we acknowledge that each woman’s attitude towards children is different. The idea that just "talking honestly"…

Read it again, it's phrased as being necessary but not necessarily sufficient. You're arguing it's not sufficient -- and okay, it doesn't have to be. Without a true and open reckoning of the costs of a path, people can't make good decisions about the path. Will a true and open reckoning of the costs of a path make the path one people choose? No, not on its own. But it's part of it.

She's still accepting the premise that more female success, as a whole, is something she values. But validating that it is okay for women to choose to be less successful in order to focus on their family is clearly going to result in less female career success.

Deep down I think we all agree that both startups and involving yourself in your children's lives take a lot of time and effort, and that we should respect an individual's free choice to determine what balance works for them. But many are struggling with an opposing ideal that necessarily cannot coexist. For example, by declining the CEO position, she's actively working against the ideal of having an equal number of female CEOs to male CEOs.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#152

Post by munificent » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:14 PM UTC

aklemm wrote: post #147

Kids are a distraction to intense work. At the same time, becoming a parent is a potential growth experience that is unrivaled and brings value. Healthy kids are a value to society. Non-parents benefit from a society full of healthy children. Parents should be rewarded--or at least equally as compensated--with pay and/or status that tracks with the successes those unburdened with parenting achieve.

> Kids are a distraction to intense work.

For what it's worth, I've done my most intense productive work after having children.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#153

Post by TeMPOraL » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:15 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #146

whatshisface wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once it's spent, it doesn't really matter how, except insofar as it's left you with something afterwards. Three people standing side by side, one of them partied their whole twenties, the other focused on career, the last had kids. They're all thirty, so that's the same, but one of them clearly is worse off.

Extend your analogy out in time: Three people in their 90s, laying side by side at their deathbeds. One filled their life with friends and experiences, the other did nothing but work, the other raised children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren. Now who is the winner and who the loser?

> Now who is the winner and who the loser?

Depends on who's awarding the points.

Could be either one of them. Could be all of them. It's not like they were competing, or even playing the same game.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#154

Post by benhurmarcel » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:15 PM UTC

intarga wrote: post #3

What is unacceptable to me is why this question is never asked of Fathers. I don’t think anyone would blink at hearing that a dad only sees his kids on weekends, but is it not just as harmful? Ultimately though, I fail to understand why anyone without the proper time to devote to a child would chose to have one.

> I don’t think anyone would blink at hearing that a dad only sees his kids on weekends

Unless it’s a bad case of divorce, of course that would seem weird and detrimental. Who would consider that normal?

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#155

Post by u678u » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

denimnerd42 wrote: post #60

I don't know if it's fair to classify this as just a mom problem. I'm having the same problems as a Dad.

Right, the most "successful" friends I have are all childless or divorced without children living with them.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#156

Post by golemiprague » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

parineum wrote: post #86

It strikes me that there is some kind of cognitive dissonance that prevents people from recognizing their time as a commodity. I understand and support the push to normalize women in the workplace in leadership positions but there seems to be a failure to recognize the cost. I think the "traditional" family roles of mother stays home and father works are outdated but I think the train goes off the tracks when people…

I don't think gender roles is a problem, why did we decide that it is? On average women want to care for people more than men, it is manifesting also on the type of jobs they choose which are more on the care taking side. Gender is just a marker like any other marker, physical strange, IQ, social skills and you could find disparities in average work choices also based on those parameters. The genders are not the same, not biologically and not mentally and average differences should be expected and even encouraged, we don't want to push people to do things they don't want and suitable to do.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#157

Post by whatshisface » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #146

whatshisface wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once it's spent, it doesn't really matter how, except insofar as it's left you with something afterwards. Three people standing side by side, one of them partied their whole twenties, the other focused on career, the last had kids. They're all thirty, so that's the same, but one of them clearly is worse off.

Extend your analogy out in time: Three people in their 90s, laying side by side at their deathbeds. One filled their life with friends and experiences, the other did nothing but work, the other raised children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren. Now who is the winner and who the loser?

The one with kids has visitors so probably them. Old people can get pretty lonely if they don't have descendants. It's not talked about often but it's a really important part of not being miserable when you're 90.

When your body isn't good for anything anymore and you can't even enjoy spending money, being happy about the people you created is more or less the only thing left - and you can really be happy about it. But that's only if you have a good sense of empathy for the happiness of people you care about.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#158

Post by halfmatthalfcat » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:17 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #145

We can’t expect more women to succeed in the startup world until we’re able to talk honestly about how much harder startups are for those who want to spend a lot of time with their kids. I think the expectation of being able to do both is quite unfair, at least the expectation of being able to do both well. There are many things that aren't compatible with being a cofounder. For example, you're not going to start a s…

You can be a Marine rifleman, NFL quarterback or EMT _and then be_ a successful startup founder. You can also be a parent _and then_ start a startup. There's no age limit and kids eventually grow up and move out.

Unless we're relegating/gatekeeping 50+ year olds from starting startups? Especially during retirement, there's still a lot of time to do stuff.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#159

Post by lotsofpulp » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:19 PM UTC

bladegash wrote: post #124

lotsofpulp wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One parent serves as redundancy for the other. I don’t know how you did it, but when we had just one baby/toddler, and no other kids or relatives to watch them, one adult is constantly watching the kid, and the other is taking care of household tasks. The person watching the kid looks like they have spare time, but it’s garbage time because your attention is diverted to the kid every couple minutes or less.

That’s fair, but perhaps there are also some parents that pay far more attention to their children than they really require or is even healthy for them. I found this especially true with our first born, where once you have a second, you quickly realize you probably gave them just a tad too much attention than was necessary. Children have been raised in situations with single parents, ones where one or both parents wo…

By garbage time, I mean I can't productively use the time I'm spending being responsible for the kid to do any involved task.

I'm not saying I interact with the kid the whole time, but I have to keep an eye on the toddler to make sure they're not hurting themselves, or more likely, the toddler is pestering me to play with them. They play with their own toys and pots and pans for a few minutes, but it's not long before they see you on the laptop or whatever and want to get up in your lap.

It's easier if there are other toddlers to play with and how a daycare can watch multiple toddlers with one adult.

Re: What nobody says about startup moms

#160

Post by dexterdog » Mon, May 03, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #145

We can’t expect more women to succeed in the startup world until we’re able to talk honestly about how much harder startups are for those who want to spend a lot of time with their kids. I think the expectation of being able to do both is quite unfair, at least the expectation of being able to do both well. There are many things that aren't compatible with being a cofounder. For example, you're not going to start a s…

Part of that is because we hear so many successful business people portrayed as also being great parents. I have seen so many of those that I knew first-hand to be fabrications that I just assume them to be false now.