Live data from Hacker News

Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic

scientificamerican.com

811–820 of 821 posts

Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic

#811

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. I work in my country's national influenza lab, and we still do tests specifically for influenza. We can distinguish between subtypes of influenza with those, the idea of the test being so broad it can pick up other phyla is outrageous.

I never questioned the ability of a lab to detect the flu. I chose the null hypothesis that the flu did not disappear. You are the one claiming the flu disappeared lol.

You stated:

> people with the flu are without any question being counted as counted as covid-19 cases

I'm saying that is simply not possible - at least not in my country. We actually require a proper test for the presence of SARS-CoV 2 before they are diagnosed with covid.

Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic

#812

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ad-hominem argument. You might as well say Isaac Newton also believed in astrology, so we should throw out all his work on math and physics. As a non-religious person, astrology and religion are no different to me, so then you might as well throw out any knowledge innovated by like 99% of people who have ever lived. I have no stake or attachment to Kary Mullis, whether he's wrong or right is irrelevant to m…

> That's an ad-hominem argument. And yours was an argument from authority. You gave no explanation of or support for Mullis's arguments, and you gave no reason to believe his conclusion except a positive aspect of his reputation (i.e., his discovery of PCR in the first place). In that case, negative aspects of his reputation (i.e., the fluorescent raccoon; or, closer to the domain in question, his belief on HIV and A…

> And yours was an argument from authority. You gave no explanation of or support for Mullis's arguments, and you gave no reason to believe his conclusion except a positive aspect of his reputation (i.e., his discovery of PCR in the first place).

Nice try but your tit for tat doesn't quite work. I explicitly said I have no attachment to Mullis or his claims. I didn't make an argument myself. I was asking "the creator of PCR made this claim, what are the counter-arguments?"

Then, and now again, you gave your irrelevant ad-hominem points. I don't care if he believed in voodoo or saw pink elephants in the sky, because they're irrelevant to my question. And as I already said, Newton believed some outlandish things, yet I still believe in physics. I'm interested in what the counterpoints to his argument, not his reputation, are.

I also read your comment, and it's also not relevant to my question. You seem upset that it's gotten zero interaction, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do about that. But I'm not looking for info on why PCR tests are true positives, I'm looking for arguments on Mullis' claims

Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic

#813

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's an ad-hominem argument. And yours was an argument from authority. You gave no explanation of or support for Mullis's arguments, and you gave no reason to believe his conclusion except a positive aspect of his reputation (i.e., his discovery of PCR in the first place). In that case, negative aspects of his reputation (i.e., the fluorescent raccoon; or, closer to the domain in question, his belief on HIV and A…

> And yours was an argument from authority. You gave no explanation of or support for Mullis's arguments, and you gave no reason to believe his conclusion except a positive aspect of his reputation (i.e., his discovery of PCR in the first place). Nice try but your tit for tat doesn't quite work. I explicitly said I have no attachment to Mullis or his claims. I didn't make an argument myself. I was asking "the creator…

So to be clear, do you agree that almost all positive PCR tests for SARS-CoV-2 are true positives (i.e., that almost all patients testing positive are truly infected)? If yes, then what do you think (or think Mullis thinks) is wrong with "the way that PCR is being used today"?

The comment you replied to was speculating about "false positives where flu cases get labeled as Covid". Mullis's comments are not too coherent, but I read them as a claim that PCR tests will result in false positives, and I assumed that was why you thought they were relevant. At least one other user seems to have read them the same way, since user theclap responded with a link to a different article explicitly about PCR false positives. Do you read them as something else?

Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic

#814

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And yours was an argument from authority. You gave no explanation of or support for Mullis's arguments, and you gave no reason to believe his conclusion except a positive aspect of his reputation (i.e., his discovery of PCR in the first place). Nice try but your tit for tat doesn't quite work. I explicitly said I have no attachment to Mullis or his claims. I didn't make an argument myself. I was asking "the creator…

So to be clear, do you agree that almost all positive PCR tests for SARS-CoV-2 are true positives (i.e., that almost all patients testing positive are truly infected)? If yes, then what do you think (or think Mullis thinks) is wrong with "the way that PCR is being used today"? The comment you replied to was speculating about "false positives where flu cases get labeled as Covid". Mullis's comments are not too coheren…

I don't agree with anything; I don't have an opinion or stance, I've said that from the beginning. I'm looking for someone _else_ to give _their_ opinion or evidence. I don't know how many different ways I can rephrase the same point.

Here's a quote from another reply to my original comment:

> > Kary Mullis: I think misused PCR is not quite ... I don't think you can misuse PCR. No, the results, the interpretation of it. See if you can say, if they wanted, if they could find this virus in you at all, and with PCR if you do it well you can find almost anything in anybody. It starts making you believe in the, sort of buddhist notion, that everything is contained in everything else. Right, I mean because if you can amplify one single molecule up to to something that you can really measure which PCR can do, then there's just very few molecules that you don't have at least one single one of them in your body. Okay, so that could be thought of as a misuse of it just to claim that it's meaningful. It is, there's very little of what they call HIV and what's been brought out here by Phil ... the measurement for it is not exact at all, it's not it's not as good as our measurement for things like apples. An apple is an apple. You know, you can get something that's kind of like, if you've got enough things that look kind of like an apple you stick them all together you might think it as an apple. And HIV is like that. Those tests are all based on things that are invisible, and they are the results are inferred in a sense. PCR is separate from that, it's just a process that's used to make a whole lot of something out of something that's why it's not, it doesn't tell you that you're sick and it doesn't tell you that the thing you ended up with really was going to hurt you or anything like that.

An example of what I'm looking for info on is this in particular:

> PCR is separate from that, it's just a process that's used to make a whole lot of something out of something that's why it's not, it doesn't tell you that you're sick and it doesn't tell you that the thing you ended up with really was going to hurt you or anything like that.

I don't have an opinion myself and I'm just looking for someone informed to comment on how today's use of PCR for diagnosing covid aligns with the inventor of PCR's comments that it isn't useful for diagnosing illness. Not whether or not today's covid tests are false or true positives

Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic

#815

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So to be clear, do you agree that almost all positive PCR tests for SARS-CoV-2 are true positives (i.e., that almost all patients testing positive are truly infected)? If yes, then what do you think (or think Mullis thinks) is wrong with "the way that PCR is being used today"? The comment you replied to was speculating about "false positives where flu cases get labeled as Covid". Mullis's comments are not too coheren…

I don't agree with anything; I don't have an opinion or stance, I've said that from the beginning. I'm looking for someone _else_ to give _their_ opinion or evidence. I don't know how many different ways I can rephrase the same point. Here's a quote from another reply to my original comment: > > Kary Mullis: I think misused PCR is not quite ... I don't think you can misuse PCR. No, the results, the interpretation of…

The PCR test is being used clinically in two major ways. First, people with a positive test are advised to isolate themselves, to avoid infecting others. As I noted in my very first reply, a positive PCR test doesn't necessarily mean that the patient is shedding viable virus (i.e., that the patient could infect others), and that's the kernel of truth behind Mullis's statements. I posted a link above to a paper that attempted to culture virus from PCR-positive samples:

> It can be observed that at Ct = 25, up to 70% of patients remain positive in culture and that at Ct = 30 this value drops to 20%. At Ct = 35, the value we used to report a positive result for PCR, https://academic.oup.com/cid/advance-article/doi/10.1093/cid...

So it's absolutely true that some of the people who test positive by PCR would never have infected anyone else, and there was no need for them to isolate. But it's hard to distinguish who--the viral culture takes too much time to run for each patient, and no one really knows how sensitive that is anyways. So to be conservative, they just advise everyone to isolate.

People have talked about advising isolation only if Ct is less than some lower cutoff, since there's a clear correlation between Ct and positivity in culture. But since a patient early in the infection might have high Ct now but lower Ct later, public health authorities haven't done so.

The second way that PCR tests are being used is to diagnose the cause of illness--a patient comes in sick, and the doctor is trying to find the cause. At this point, we already know that the patient is sick, because they're coughing, complaining that they feel terrible, etc. The PCR test isn't what tells us that they're sick, but rather what tells us that the cause of their sickness is SARS-CoV-2. The alternative hypothesis is that people are dying of some different disease, and by coincidence the excess mortality due to that different disease correlates strongly with SARS-CoV-2 test positivity (which e.g. is why that's high in the USA, and low in Australia; you can also see the correlation within a single region if you look at the time series). That would be a pretty strange coincidence, and no one has proposed any mechanism for that.

So do the above clinical uses seem reasonable to you? Or is there some other clinical use that seems unreasonable to you in light of Mullis's comments?

Perhaps this confusion comes from the definition of "illness" or "sick". In a certain sense, if I don't feel sick, then no test can tell me otherwise. For example, was Typhoid Mary "sick"? Is an HIV patient with no symptoms? Kary Mullis says no:

> A man with gray hair and a goatee raises his hand. He says he's been HIV-positive since 1984, that he took the anti-AIDS drug AZT for a couple years but stopped. Now, he says, his T-cell count -- the number of a kind of white blood cell that is killed by HIV -- has gone way down.

> Mullis interrupts him: "Change doctors!"

> The man continues. His T-cell count is down to 150, which is usually thought of as dangerously low. He asks Mullis for advice.

> "I would say there is no evidence that I can find in the scientific literature that you should worry about HIV or your T-cell count," Mullis tells him. "If you'd stop worrying, maybe you'll be all right. You look pretty healthy to me."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/1998/11/03/...

Do you think he gave that patient good advice?

Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic

#816
post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading a conspiracy theory back in ~ April 2020 that said "what happened to the flu" / "why are flu cases down so sharply?" It was literally so stupid that it took me a minute or two to understand that the implication was that conspiracy theorists think flu cases were being categorized as covid.

Could you explain why this is "literally so stupid" when this appears to be what is happening? If lockdown measures, social distancing, mask wearing, etc. were the true cause of the massive reduction in flu cases, we would expect to also see that countries and US states that failed to enact measures would be reporting high flu numbers to the WHO. This doesn't appear to be happening. Instead, "the drop-off in flu numb…

There's a good clip from CBC in 2012 about flu surveillance and how it's an unverified estimate with very large bounds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mViFHqDD9hI

Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic

#817

I was just commenting to a co-worker my entire family hasn't been sick since the pandemic started. That is very unusual for a family with young children. No flu, no stomach viruses, absolutely nothing for more than a year now. Thankfully no covid-19 either.

This year was a great experiment in person hygiene. It was the healthiest I have ever been for a full year, no colds, stomach bugs, anything. I'm not sure which practices I'll continue, but its definitely shown me that I have wayyyy more control over my health than I previously thought. Curious what others think are the most effective continued practices. Seems like social distancing isn't super reasonable, but maybe…

You have no clue what health is.

Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic

#818

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely wrong. Labs in all the largest cities in the US, simply stopped accepting samples for anything other than COVID. Source: wife is RN working as triage nurse and interacting daily with the largest testing sites in NY, CA, NJ, IL, etc.etc.etc.

> And the decline has not been because of a lack of testing. Since late September, 1.3 million specimens have been tested for influenza, more than the average of about one million in the same period in recent years. Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/04/22/science/flu-s... My wife is also an ER doctor and agrees that there were times that they didn't perform many/any flu tests--mostly in the spring of 2…

Hmmm, interesting. Wonder what the source of this 1.3 million flu tests is. It makes no sense. Why would doctors send off flu labs to such a statistically higher degree, in a year when they're not seeing any flu?

Re: Flu has disappeared worldwide during the Covid pandemic

#820

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did we even test for the flu? Or did we just presume that flu cases were COIVD because the symptoms are so similar? The idea that the flu just 'disappeared' despite world trade continuing just sets off my bullshit detectors. Between all the countries that did little or nothing initially, and the people who refused to wear masks and didn't lock down...there's just no way it dropped to zero. Less? Sure. But gone? I sim…

The WHO has the FluNET program and they constantly test a fixed set of people with respiratory symptoms for flu, all around the world. FluNET is precisely why we know flu dropped so much, and hence the large chunk of people with respiratory symptoms have been COVID-19 or otherwise, but certainly not flu.

Thanks for sharing. That's why I was asking.

Also, username-bro.

Post reply on HN