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My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

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Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#71

Post by rasputnik6502 »

floatingatoll wrote: post #65
rasputnik6502 wrote: post #6

Nice story. It takes some experience and self knowledge to identify what is a joke and what is bullying. Most men just want to be liked, seem witty and funny, and sometimes are just going a too far to show off. But there's a group of people who will belittle you to humiliate and assert their higher position in the hierarchy and this is a part of an ugly campaign to destroy any competition (which also means you're per…

I must highlight a false assumption in your story: > With a male dev it would not be possible, but when a woman accuses a man of harassment or bullying at work the man is considered guilty by default I guarantee you that it is absolutely possible for men to be emotionally manipulative to cover for professional lapses in an employment setting. Typically they go for "dude, we're bros, why can't you let it slide" rather…

Ok, it really doesnt matter if it's a woman or a man, and some parts of your advice make sense. But i'm not yet into firing anyone, it's just first hints of potential problems. You know, nothing really happened, some technical discussion is being derailed and moved into personal ground, where they can call my behavior wrong or accuse of being mean. Ok, i got the message, and we're good for now, but next time i will avoid any discussion with them knowing that we will go again into blaming. And so such person gets special treatment from the team.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#72

Post by rasputnik6502 »

floatingatoll wrote: post #64
rasputnik6502 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too little we know about Dick. Apart from the fact that he touched the hair of his coworker and made some personal remarks. Then when the woman asked him to stop he couldn't, he couldn't just apologize and stop because this would mean he did something wrong. So he did it again pretending it's just a fun joke. I dont know, i'm not a woman. I dont even know how to handle some strange situations at work. But what Dick d…

> when the women asked him to stop he couldn't As a functioning human adult, "wouldn't" is the correct word here. It may seem like a small matter, but it's not: saying "couldn't" is a very popular way to represent the idea that men aren't responsible for behavior that others find unacceptable, especially when it's towards women. Please take more care around your phrasing in the future. > apart from the fact that he t…

Yes, basically agree, i'm just saying that men are trying to avoid responsibility for their actions by behaving like a child. Im not saying this is right, it's just how people behave. Boys just do stupid things to avoid admitting defeat or losing face in front of the group, and these stupid things include disobedience, provocation or bullying.

The other direction is - if you can't go this path and have your way by forcing, then play a victim, accuse others of harming you, being bad abusers or bullies while maintaining you're innocent. This also removes your responsibility from the situation so why not.

And my perception is that women will more often go with strategy #2 while men would first try #1. Is it sexism? I dont know, i dont have the knowledge necessary to tell. Maybe ask divorce lawyers, they have many real world cases. My point is that thesse kinds of behaviors are wired in humans and cannot be elliminated. You should identify bullying and harrasment at work but not by single incidents that always happen. If the negative behavior is repetitive, comes from the same person all the time then it's justified to call it abuse.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#73

Post by rasputnik6502 »

PicassoCTs wrote: post #33
etripe wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm disappointed the best she could do summing up her 20-year experience as a woman in tech is high baseline agression, cynicism, two examples of violence on her part, one genuinely off-colour remark and one piece of unacceptable behaviour by a colleague. I would have preferred to see some analysis of how she has had to and did adjust to the way men think, some tips for colleagues welcoming women, something she appre…

That punch, that was tech-bro language. Good on her. And it worked.

yep. worked. Good for her. In the symmetrical situation (man punching a woman in workplace) i cant imagine it would ever work. The guy would have been fired on the spot, and then have his ass beaten some more by lawyers. Bye bye career. The author of the article paints herelf here as a poor victim and i really consider this wrong.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#74

Post by etripe »

dasil003 wrote: post #35
etripe wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm disappointed the best she could do summing up her 20-year experience as a woman in tech is high baseline agression, cynicism, two examples of violence on her part, one genuinely off-colour remark and one piece of unacceptable behaviour by a colleague. I would have preferred to see some analysis of how she has had to and did adjust to the way men think, some tips for colleagues welcoming women, something she appre…

You really might want to reflect on your own biases as your last paragraph is entirely your editorial and is not present in the article at all. To the contrary she had mutual respect with her team, and was found to be justified in punching someone by higher ups, which would definitely not be the case if she was the one with an unreasonable chip on her shoulder. Also, your suggestion about presenting analysis of "the…

> not present in the article at all

Did you find any evidence of sexism in her first example? Is it unreasonable to say she jumped to her own conclusions there?

Do you think there might have been more going on in her second example than "sexism" when she got seated in a supply closet? Is it reasonable to assume no one went to lunch with her just because she was a woman?

> presenting analysis of "the way men think" would be an absolute minefield, not to mention inherently reductive and problematic

As opposed to her one-sided anecdotal "evidence" of a sector structurally ill-adapted to women that she somehow stuck with for 20 years anyway? The fact she stuck with it so long is indicative that there must be upsides, none of which she mentions because she wasn't interested in providing a measured or constructive account - she wanted to write about sexism.

> by being very specific and factual she gives us more to chew on.

That's precisely it: her account isn't factual, it's anecdotal with all the inherent biases and one-sided interpretation that go along with that.

What nutritional value are you deriving? What did you find actionable or insightful? What are reasonable men to take away from her post? What are women, aside from "don't join up"?

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#75

Post by techbio »

All 3 beverages caffeinated, of course... Wonder how that affects interpersonal transactions. Anybody on edge and slightly ahead of themselves? Everybody?

Just want to recommend L-Theanine to smooth the jagged edges. Men and women both ought to notch it back as far as I can tell.

EDIT: I thought it might be pertinent, but clearly the battle of the sexes is more interesting to all of you. Grow up.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#76

Post by machello13 »

floatingatoll wrote: post #31

Men, if you want to know how to help prevent this kind of nonsense, pro tip: > he went on to say that Dick is a bully, and he’s personally wanted to punch Dick for years This executive leader tolerated Dick for years, and then instead of getting Dick fired for gross and inappropriate touching, he celebrated a harassed woman on having to physically defend her person inside the workplace. So, men, your mission, should…

> focusing on the men-enabling-men problem will have the widest societal impact for women

Eh, are you sure? I’ve never read an exposition of a dysfunctional abusive company that wasn’t full of women in powerful positions also enabling terrible behavior.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#77

Post by techbio »

Graffur wrote: post #28

I'll admit I didn't finish the article. I got as far as the author critising her colleagues clothes. If this was the other way round she would be pissed but because she is making fun of men itself okay to her. She also seems to think a receptionist or assistant is beneath her for some reason. I'm tired of pandering to the idea of all men bad all women good.

I figured as much, and just skimmed to catch the title beverages, but it didn't sit well with somebody.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27024130

Also, sibling poster with "Huh?": how can you be that clueless?

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#78

Post by techbio »

bjourne wrote: post #47
rasputnik6502 wrote: post #6

Nice story. It takes some experience and self knowledge to identify what is a joke and what is bullying. Most men just want to be liked, seem witty and funny, and sometimes are just going a too far to show off. But there's a group of people who will belittle you to humiliate and assert their higher position in the hierarchy and this is a part of an ugly campaign to destroy any competition (which also means you're per…

I don't get how the dev's gender factors into the story. Everyone of us have dealt with colleagues that don't handle criticism well and/or are poor performers. That your conclusion is that it is because she is a woman (don't call them girls) may indicate that you have some learning to do.

I don't think GP concludes that her performance is due to her gender, but that the retaliatory threat he perceived was distinctly so.

Are you sure your conclusions aren't because of his gender?

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#80

Post by floatingatoll »

machello13 wrote: post #76
floatingatoll wrote: post #31

Men, if you want to know how to help prevent this kind of nonsense, pro tip: > he went on to say that Dick is a bully, and he’s personally wanted to punch Dick for years This executive leader tolerated Dick for years, and then instead of getting Dick fired for gross and inappropriate touching, he celebrated a harassed woman on having to physically defend her person inside the workplace. So, men, your mission, should…

> focusing on the men-enabling-men problem will have the widest societal impact for women Eh, are you sure? I’ve never read an exposition of a dysfunctional abusive company that wasn’t full of women in powerful positions also enabling terrible behavior.

“It’s snowing, clearly global warming isn’t real.”

California recently passed a law requiring a minimum diversity threshold for corporate boards, due to how few incorporated more than a single token non-man.

I look forward to arriving at a society where men and women are, as you suggest, equally present in and complicit in executive leadership and failures thereof, but we certainly aren’t there yet.

It’s also worth noting that my request is directed to all men, rather than not-all men. You can take steps to stop bad men without being an executive.

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