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Will Linux phones stay around this time?

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Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#451

Post by pjmlp »

tedchs wrote: post #319

Stories about "Linux as the underdog" have confused me for several years. The truth is, Linux has won, and it's OK to recognize that. The majority of phones sold are "Linux phones" -- it's the kernel for Android! The top selling laptops for years provide "Linux on the desktop" -- Chromebooks run ChromeOS, which is Linux! Nearly all host servers, at nearly every cloud provider, run Linux. The vast majority of cloud VM…

A kernel that isn't exposed to userspace, POSIX and Linux syscalls are not public APIs on Android, which is composed of Java userspace and a well defined set of NDK APIs.

Any application that tries to use private APIs might be killed by Android Sandbox infrastructure.

As such Google can replace it by something else, e.g. Fuchsia, and app developers won't even notice that the kernel has changed (ART is being ported to Fuchsia).

Then on IoT space, the competition from BSD licensed POSIX clones is heating up, most OEMs don't want any GPL tainted OS on their devices, just in case.

As for the desktop, I already gave up.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#452

Post by cookiengineer »

ldiracdelta wrote: post #335
cookiengineer wrote: post #103

This is kind of anecdotal to Meego, WebOS, FirefoxOS and all the other forms of them that happened in the past. I don't think that people will use the phone solely because it's Linux. They'll use it if it can solve their tasks at hand. Personally I think that Linux will never take off if we won't create financial incentives to make and deploy apps, additionally to fix the mess that's user rights/permission management…

What is this idea that Qt can't be used? You can license with the community license under LGPL. If Qt can't be used with an open source license, then nothing LGPL can use open source commercially, but the point of LGPL is to not scare away businesses with viral copy-left code. Yes, you have to deliver your object files and a Makefile, et c. Also, you have to open source your Qt library edits, but who needs to do that…

> What is this idea that Qt can't be used? You can license with the community license under LGPL.

The Terms and Conditions on their website [1] say otherwise, especially "APPENDIX 4: SMALL BUSINESS AND STARTUP". No, sir, I'm not touching that library for anything I want to make money with.

[1] https://www.qt.io/terms-conditions/

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#453

Post by konart »

matkoniecz wrote: post #444
konart wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't touched windows as a software developer since around 2008, so I don't know what's going on in there really. So long as I can launch games in my steam lib I'm fine. My main working OS was Ubuntu (~2006-2010) and Arch(20010-2013). Then I got tired of my Android phone and switched to iPhone and mac book. (if that matters somehow) As for you question - you were saying, quote: >this is as untrue as "Year $YEAR w…

> And the general situation is that Linux is almost nonexistent on desktop. It is not the same as "Linux desktop is nowhere" 2% in total population is tiny but not "nowhere". And in some populations (like programmers) use is much higher, 25% according to SO survey. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste...

>And in some populations (like programmers) use is much higher, 25% according to SO survey.

Sure, and if you take even smaller fraction you may find numbers like 50% or higher. But what does it have to do with general situation we are talking about?

This sounds like those weird surveys: "9 out of 10 people said that quit smoking this yeah!" but after reading more you realise they were talking to people from a hospice or tuberculosis dispensary.

>2% in total population is tiny but not "nowhere".

Okay. That's your stance, I accept it. Mine is that 2% is nowhere.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#454

Post by linmob »

curioussavage wrote: post #440
AussieWog93 wrote: post #139

I'd be shocked if it took off. The FOSS development paradigm seems to be allergic to good UI design, and this is far more important for people on mobile than desktop.

The idea it has to “take off” is silly. It could certainly be something similar to raspberry pi. Small market but really popular. It’s already on its way there.

I totally agree. Establishing a sustainable niche is enough.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#455

Post by [deleted] »

curioussavage wrote: post #439
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know, however it also costs $800 for middling performance at best and is backordered probably until early 2022. It's close and getting closer, though.

One plus 6 support is looking pretty good. Give a few months and it may be a viable choice with decent specs.

[deleted]

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#456

Post by slver »

megous wrote: post #415
slver wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you don’t just want Linux on the phone. You want basically the desktop Linux ecosystem on the phone. That’s a no go from the start. Even Apple didn’t do that when they made iOS. And the problem we solve with this is so you don’t have to learn something new. That’s honestly a poor problem to have.

Funny. :) I've learned much more using pinephone than I ever did using Androids or iPhones I had been lent for testing from a companies I did jobs for. Here's what I've learned for example: https://xnux.eu/devices/pine64-pinephone.html I just don't want to learn something that will be completely useless to me, because I'm not interested in commercial mobile apps development for Android, and that's about anything that…

How come you're the guy who said:

"To me GNU/Linux is the simpler more familiar ecosystem. Android is big and complicated, with different tooling, different APIs, different everything."

And now also says:

"If anything it's people who will not consider anything else but Android, and just handwavily reject anything else like many posters in the comments under this article, who seem resistant to learning something new."

Honestly it takes quite the logical contortions. I look at it like that: do you want to target a platform that has proven tools and existing audience, your options are iOS and Android.

If you think you'll shame people into using PinePhone because it's something new, most people don't just go for "something new", they go for something new that also has a purpose. I'm not sure what's the purpose of PinePhone is. It seems like a niche within a niche within a niche.

If that's all it has going for it, that it appeals to people like you, because you're familiar with Linux, it'll fail. And all your investment in it will be for nothing. I don't say this because I want to be a dick, I say this because this is my prediction of what will happen. And I don't decide what happens.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#457

Post by kapad »

j-james wrote: post #114

I don't understand the desire for a Linux phone as so described in the article as a daily driver. The Android platform represents an enormous amount of work that encompasses a more secure base kernel, an unparalleled selection of applications designed for mobile usage and written in a memory-safe language, fantastic sandboxing and user privacy features leagues ahead of any desktop operating system, and great diversit…

I recently tried setting up an Android phone with LineageOS without any gapps. Google's integration into the Android libraries that are used to build almost all the apps out there is so deep that a lot of apps that I use regularly wouldn't even launch on the phone.

Basically, by controlling the API that apps target when they are built, Google has attacked the AOSP from 2 sides. First is from the developer side of things. App developers need to jump through many hoops to make an app that would fall back to working with Google's services running on the phone (LineageOS without Gapps and using some fake gapps implementation to keep the API from breaking).

The second attack that Google has made to the AOSP is from the end user's perspective. They have made it harder and harder to use AOSP without Google's services. Since it's so hard for user's to setup and use a phone without Google's services, they almost never take that option. (I personally, reverted to the OnePlus' Oxygen OS and ditched LineageOS). The end result being that user's just don't want to leave Google's Android garden and explore the wilderness of AOSP without Google.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#458

Post by jokoon »

fsflover wrote: post #367
jokoon wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean Google always has dominant expertise when it comes to android, but it's still open source. I would still rather prefer using learn that reinventing a whole mobile OS. Hard to say if Google tries to complexify android to avoid rivals. I often say google has the same situation of microsoft when it comes to drivers.

> but it's still open source Tell that to Termux: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25644964 . > reinventing a whole mobile OS There is no reason to reinvent an OS. You can use desktop GNU/Linux on modern phones. You only need to tweak the UI (see Phosh). You will also have full computer in your pocket and ability to connect it to a screen and use all Linux apps.

> There is no reason to reinvent an OS.

Android is an awesome OS. I really don't see a good reason to reinvent one, seen the progress made by android.

> You can use desktop GNU/Linux on modern phones.

Yeah but no. A mobile OS is much more usable on a smartphone than a desktop one.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#459

Post by drybjed »

nix23 wrote: post #186

I was thinking about Plan9 lately, and Mobile is THE platform for it...i think. Since you are ~always online, how cool would it be when your phone is just the terminal, the CPU/File/Authentication-Servers sitting in the DC, is that the future?

There is/was a Hellaphone[1] project, based on Inferno, a Plan 9 successor. There are also some slides[2] and a video demonstration[3] available.

[1]: https://jfloren.net/b/2015/8/18/2

[2]: https://www.defcon.org/images/defcon-20/dc-20-presentations/...

[3]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF_-jQc53jw

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#460

Post by selfhoster11 »

wjertyj wrote: post #365
chrisseaton wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many people get a free or heavily subsidized phone from their carrier Is this really the case anymore? Why would you buy a phone from a third party like that? Most people I know buy their phone direct from Apple or an Android device from Amazon retail.

Most people you know are wealthy then.

No, not really. A reasonable phone can be had for $200 or less, if you're willing to compromise on features. Carriers haven't been carrying good value-for-money phones on good value-for-money plans for at least 10 years in my country, so cutting out the middle man by buying SIM-only with your own phone is the natural thing to do.
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