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My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

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Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#61

Post by DoreenMichele »

scpedicini wrote: post #60
DoreenMichele wrote: post #52

I really like the part where they decided to just have her greet everyone and see how that went. That's a brilliant hack.

I don't know... I feel like putting her into that position exposed her to a lot of negative energy that she may not have necessarily received in the first place. If I personally was the brunt of all that crap, it would definitely get to me personally - so while I appreciate the company's approach ideologically I think emotionally it might've done more psychological damage to her in the long run.

I have a great deal of trouble imagining that weeding out blatant sexist pigs in five minutes flat is somehow worse than working alongside one for months while he tries to pretend he's not but still cannot manage to actually have one iota of respect for her.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#62

Post by scpedicini »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #61
scpedicini wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know... I feel like putting her into that position exposed her to a lot of negative energy that she may not have necessarily received in the first place. If I personally was the brunt of all that crap, it would definitely get to me personally - so while I appreciate the company's approach ideologically I think emotionally it might've done more psychological damage to her in the long run.

I have a great deal of trouble imagining that weeding out blatant sexist pigs in five minutes flat is somehow worse than working alongside one for months while he tries to pretend he's not but still cannot manage to actually have one iota of respect for her.

Yeah I see your point, it's unfortunate there is not an automated pre-interview system (like GPT meets Eliza) that could flag these people such that actual women aren't exposed to their toxicity.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#63

Post by scpedicini »

M2Ys4U wrote: post #49
scpedicini wrote: post #43

I'm not trying to invalidate this woman's experiences, because if they are genuinely true as written down, then that is some seriously toxic misogynistic shit, but some of the quotes from the male interviewees sound like they could be lifted straight out of an episode of mad men and an office in the 1960s. “Hey, hon, before you go… can you get me some more coffee? And put some sugar in it." I mean... really?? It's ha…

"I'm not trying to invalidate this woman's experiences, but "

Sigh... really? This is reddit-level "Yakov Smirnoff" of rebuttals. But I'm going to break it down for you anyway and operate on the shared assumption of good faith since you may have genuinely misconstrued my intent.

I couched my words - stating that I only found one particular piece of content unbelievable - once again now, FOR ME PERSONALLY. Irrespective of whether the "1950s women in the workforce" quote actually transpired, her overall experiences still cast a powerful light on the continuing toxic nature of the work environment for women.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#64

Post by floatingatoll »

rasputnik6502 wrote: post #36
PicassoCTs wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those a holes are sooo useful. A company has a interior and a endoplasmatic reticulum, and while the interior can be a nice place, the parts closer to the skin get continuously more a hole. Which makes it a intersting question if Dick was a a hole to everyone equally. Some people in there have to be the mean guys, stopping cash from hemorrhaging outwards, be the grave digger for eternal projects, who everybody wa…

Too little we know about Dick. Apart from the fact that he touched the hair of his coworker and made some personal remarks. Then when the woman asked him to stop he couldn't, he couldn't just apologize and stop because this would mean he did something wrong. So he did it again pretending it's just a fun joke. I dont know, i'm not a woman. I dont even know how to handle some strange situations at work. But what Dick d…

> when the women asked him to stop he couldn't

As a functioning human adult, "wouldn't" is the correct word here. It may seem like a small matter, but it's not: saying "couldn't" is a very popular way to represent the idea that men aren't responsible for behavior that others find unacceptable, especially when it's towards women. Please take more care around your phrasing in the future.

> apart from the fact that he touched the hair of his coworker

"apart from" trivializes and sets aside the most important thing we know about Dick: that he touches women without their consent and refuses to honor their requests to stop. There is no "apart from" that weakens, mitigates, or excuses this.

> just to check if the situation can be transformed into harmless/no consequence and they can get out without having to admit wrongdoing

Men who behave in this way are fully expecting other men to let them get away with it. They are right, statistically speaking.

Men, don't silently let them get away with it. It may feel uncomfortable to try to hold a man accountable for their actions. Bad men thrive on how reliably that discomfort makes other men stay silent. They're depending on you being too socially weak and inept to overcome that. I know it can be difficult, and you won't succeed every time, but it's important that you try every time all the same. Best of luck.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#65

Post by floatingatoll »

rasputnik6502 wrote: post #6

Nice story. It takes some experience and self knowledge to identify what is a joke and what is bullying. Most men just want to be liked, seem witty and funny, and sometimes are just going a too far to show off. But there's a group of people who will belittle you to humiliate and assert their higher position in the hierarchy and this is a part of an ugly campaign to destroy any competition (which also means you're per…

I must highlight a false assumption in your story:

> With a male dev it would not be possible, but when a woman accuses a man of harassment or bullying at work the man is considered guilty by default

I guarantee you that it is absolutely possible for men to be emotionally manipulative to cover for professional lapses in an employment setting. Typically they go for "dude, we're bros, why can't you let it slide" rather than "dude, why are you being mean to me", but at the end of the day, the reaction is exactly the same. You report the claim of harassment or bullying to HR, you recuse yourself from its handling, and you openly participate in the process and present your case that you believe manipulation is occurring.

So, since I've seen male devs do this and I've seen male devs get fired for doing this, how would I handle this if she were a he, behaving in this same manner?

I would, presumably, by the guidance of my HR department and manager training, have already been collecting written proof of failure to deliver, with independent assessments by others affirming the failure to deliver. I would have sought review and affirmation that the instructions were clear and that they agreed and affirmed to those instructions, and that they then failed to deliver what was promised.

So, then, you need to: Compile concrete (written, recorded, anything but verbal-off-the-record) evidence demonstrating failure to perform to the stated expectations. Have the expectations vetted to ensure that they're reasonable and appropriate. Have the work output vetted to ensure that it's deficient and lacking. Validate the evidence you've collected as sufficient with your manager and HR team. Then, fire them.

ps. It seems like you're assuming that a male dev would not claim harassment by a male manager, but that's actually a much more effective inflammatory technique for someone who's trying to manipulate their way out of failure to deliver, especially in conservative regions where being accused of being gay can be a career-ending experience. I encourage you to reconsider this potential blind spot in your expectations before someone takes advantage of it someday.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#66

Post by redis_mlc »

bsaul wrote: post #7

if i want to play devil's advocate here, i'd say you can't both - remark that throughout your carrer you've been pretty much the only female in your team, - note that you've been naturally assigned the role of greeting newcomers, then - be upset that a new candidate won't assume you're an assistant instead of a developer he'll work with. He's just noticed pretty much the same things as you, and concluded the most lik…

No need to play devil's advocate.

I agree with you. It's the job of the greeter, regardless of title, to provide anything needed because the candidate is not allowed to wander the halls.

In addition, she should have introduced herself as the manager.

This woman set up a candidate, and then gleefully laughed when they spilled coffee on themself?

Just imagine reversing the roles and hounding a female candidate out of the office for requesting coffee.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#67

Post by rachelbythebay »

scpedicini wrote: post #43

I'm not trying to invalidate this woman's experiences, because if they are genuinely true as written down, then that is some seriously toxic misogynistic shit, but some of the quotes from the male interviewees sound like they could be lifted straight out of an episode of mad men and an office in the 1960s. “Hey, hon, before you go… can you get me some more coffee? And put some sugar in it." I mean... really?? It's ha…

It happens, given enough time. Even today.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#68

Post by gumby »

etrabroline wrote: post #14
thedevelopnik wrote: post #2

How did Dick not get fired long before if everyone thought he was terrible? Oh right, that company did not learn the lesson of the first one, coding is not as important as being a decent person when it comes to building a team.

I will never understand this logic. It doesn't matter how friendly someone is if they can't code, but even if someone is difficult to work with (as many smart computer programmers are) they can still be hugely important to a team's success. Obviously there are limits to both of these, but technical ability is the requirement and "being fun to work with" is the nice-to-have. I think highly socialized people tend to co…

I have had some colleagues who were so-so developers yet were the social and institutional glue that made the team productive.

I didn't play team sports as a kid so it took me a decade or so as a working adult to appreciate the difference between a high-function team and a collection of super smart individuals.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#69

Post by yeldiR »

Graffur wrote: post #28

I'll admit I didn't finish the article. I got as far as the author critising her colleagues clothes. If this was the other way round she would be pissed but because she is making fun of men itself okay to her. She also seems to think a receptionist or assistant is beneath her for some reason. I'm tired of pandering to the idea of all men bad all women good.

Huh? These are stories about specific men doing specifically shitty things. The generalization is yours.

Re: My life as a woman in tech, told in three beverages

#70

Post by rasputnik6502 »

scpedicini wrote: post #41
rasputnik6502 wrote: post #6

Nice story. It takes some experience and self knowledge to identify what is a joke and what is bullying. Most men just want to be liked, seem witty and funny, and sometimes are just going a too far to show off. But there's a group of people who will belittle you to humiliate and assert their higher position in the hierarchy and this is a part of an ugly campaign to destroy any competition (which also means you're per…

I mean... this sounds like the exact job that "git blame" is made for. Does your company not have some kind of version control?

Git blame is not for blaming others
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