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A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

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Re: A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

#41

Post by ali0sha »

> Joining together for a common purpose

... is political. What is that purpose, why is it common, and how does the joining work - these are the fundamental political problems.

> If you put other things above your fellows and mission, you're a mercenary, not a fellow.

Yes. At work, you are a mercenary. Your safety, family, health, concern for the decent treatment of your fellow humans, ought to come before your product. If the direction of the company you work for impinges on human decency, you shouldn't put that aside in favour of some weird 'fellowship' complex.

> It promotes people to stick to their beliefs rather than put them aside. [...] It attracts those who have their own interest and want a platform for their own interests

It's possible to have beliefs that aren't purely self-interested, an idea which seems so foreign to the author as to escape consideration entirely. It's possible to have beliefs that help you achieve your 'mission' in a way that's compatible with your values. If laying down your belief that racism is harmful and wrong is necessary for you 'mission', then the mission is itself harmful and wrong, and no amount of 'fellowship' is going to change that.

This post is wrong. It's harmful. It's weird.

Re: A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

#43

Post by threeseed »

mellosouls wrote: post #36
threeseed wrote: post #26

It would have been nice to see a nuanced, thoughtful, insightful look at the various viewpoints that exist within this complex issue. Because many parts of this "activism" are important e.g. how women are treated in IT or what values does a company need to defend in this modern age. Instead we get an utterly cringeworthy "everyone should just be quiet and follow the wisdom of Lord of the Rings" which adds absolutely…

The analogy is unfortunately nerdy, but flagging it is over the top. That sort of behaviour plays into the hands of those who believe that criticism of social activists is shut down by sympathisers rather than countered with civil argument.

This is a low-information, immature piece of work that adds absolutely nothing constructive.

It does not deserve to be amplified by HN.

Re: A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

#44

Post by spacemanmatt »

sampo wrote: post #30
spacemanmatt wrote: post #2

I could hardly disagree more with the premise that activism is anti-fellowship. This seems like a very narrow take on activism.

> I could hardly disagree more with the premise that activism is anti-fellowship. If you are doing activism, in the workplace, that runs against the beliefs and opinions of (some of the) the people you work with. How could this be anything but anti-fellowship?

I see that many assumptions are made about the value of fellowship and the effects of activism. And this is why I disagree with the premise -- I can't start with those assumptions.

Re: A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

#45

Post by [deleted] »

StavrosK wrote: post #12
aspaceman wrote: post #4

Why is that every, single article that gets posted on this subject at HN completely ignores the “funny names” list that actually caused this incident. Folks keep acting like it was kids screaming BLM on the company message board and it’s kind of infuriatingly disingenuous. It feels almost purposeful that folks are ignoring the specific political grievance that employees had, and they are framing it as activist pressu…

This is probably less about Basecamp and more about the "straw that broke the camel's back" of people being tired of activists being so loud. Semi-unrelatedly, I noticed something interesting: People who try to solve problem X seem to dislike other people who try to solve the same problem in a slightly different way almost as much as they dislike the people who cause X in the first place. I find myself being put off…

[deleted]

Re: A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

#46

Post by barrkel »

aspaceman wrote: post #4

Why is that every, single article that gets posted on this subject at HN completely ignores the “funny names” list that actually caused this incident. Folks keep acting like it was kids screaming BLM on the company message board and it’s kind of infuriatingly disingenuous. It feels almost purposeful that folks are ignoring the specific political grievance that employees had, and they are framing it as activist pressu…

FWIW, I can see the funny side of a funny names list, and I honestly have a hard time getting worked up over it. It's not professional; it's juvenile, it's what you'd expect from a teenager, but it's not really worth getting worked up over. Junk it, stop it happening again, move on. From my POV.

Re: A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

#47

Post by spacemanmatt »

drukenemo wrote: post #39
clearcarbon wrote: post #24

Work is political - saying that people should get on with work without discussing "political topics" prevents them from discussing and solving the issues within their own work. Yes there is a need to make sure work that directly brings money into the organisation gets done but part of that work is making sure everyone everyone works equally. "There's no way the ring is getting to Mordor if Gimli is pushing for elf re…

It depends on what you refer as political. Saying a certain president is crap and making an open invitation to a protest against him or her is not the same as discussing your views on things that directly affect your work performance.

Both are overtly political.

Re: A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

#48

Post by [deleted] »

clearcarbon wrote: post #24

Work is political - saying that people should get on with work without discussing "political topics" prevents them from discussing and solving the issues within their own work. Yes there is a need to make sure work that directly brings money into the organisation gets done but part of that work is making sure everyone everyone works equally. "There's no way the ring is getting to Mordor if Gimli is pushing for elf re…

[deleted]

Re: A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

#49

Post by aspaceman »

StavrosK wrote: post #12
aspaceman wrote: post #4

Why is that every, single article that gets posted on this subject at HN completely ignores the “funny names” list that actually caused this incident. Folks keep acting like it was kids screaming BLM on the company message board and it’s kind of infuriatingly disingenuous. It feels almost purposeful that folks are ignoring the specific political grievance that employees had, and they are framing it as activist pressu…

This is probably less about Basecamp and more about the "straw that broke the camel's back" of people being tired of activists being so loud. Semi-unrelatedly, I noticed something interesting: People who try to solve problem X seem to dislike other people who try to solve the same problem in a slightly different way almost as much as they dislike the people who cause X in the first place. I find myself being put off…

Even if it was the straw that broke the camels back, basecamp has effectively shifted the conversation away from “Should the company have a funny names list?” to “Should we be able to talk politics in company spaces?”

I think it shows a lot of PR skill and thought to have shifted the conversation like this.

In my opinion you’re all too eager to argue about politics in the workplace.

Re: A Policy of Activism in the Workplace Is Anti-Fellowship

#50

Post by cblang »

clearcarbon wrote: post #24

Work is political - saying that people should get on with work without discussing "political topics" prevents them from discussing and solving the issues within their own work. Yes there is a need to make sure work that directly brings money into the organisation gets done but part of that work is making sure everyone everyone works equally. "There's no way the ring is getting to Mordor if Gimli is pushing for elf re…

> improving the material condition of disadvantaged people across society.

The average modern activist in software organizations is well educated, underperforming in terms of actual code contributions and a master at forming committees, work groups and assuming power.

This activist fights for keeping his/her own job while others are doing the work.

Classic leftist/pro-worker policies have been extinct since at least the 1990s.

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