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Will Linux phones stay around this time?

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Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#151

Post by j-james »

smhost wrote: post #131
j-james wrote: post #114

I don't understand the desire for a Linux phone as so described in the article as a daily driver. The Android platform represents an enormous amount of work that encompasses a more secure base kernel, an unparalleled selection of applications designed for mobile usage and written in a memory-safe language, fantastic sandboxing and user privacy features leagues ahead of any desktop operating system, and great diversit…

Personally, I just want it for completeness. With phone hardware getting powerful enough to run mid-to-high end games, I want to be able to carry around a phone that I can hook up peripherals to and use it just like I would use a desktop. The Android ecosystem is pretty good in its own way, but it's qualitatively different compared to the Linux ecosystem for my use case. Windows and several popular Linux distros are…

Out of curiosity, if you could set up Android so that it launches Linux in a virtual machine when a monitor / keyboard is plugged in, would that meet your use case? Or are you looking for greater integration between mobile and the desktop?

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#152

Post by techrat »

pjmlp wrote: post #141
techrat wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is about getting Linux to the point where you can choose between an Arch, Ubuntu, debian, etc. distro for your phone. Does Termux count? It may be containered within an application package, but it's running off the host kernel and it uses the debian package manager. https://i.imgur.com/WIT2VjW.png I find that, when it comes to Android, people try really hard to make exceptions for what qualifies as "Linux" tha…

Termux is on the death bed, because they refuse to ackowledge Android isn't Linux and make use of Java APIs for their purposes. So given that from Google's point of view POSIX and Linux syscalls aren't public APIs on Android, termux no longer works on latest Android versions and it will get worse, as NDK APIs keep being locked down as sandbox improvements.

I'd argue that if you were set on using something like Termux, you're already in the class of users who are most likely to be running custom Roms (eg, LineageOS) or having a modified stock image (Magisk, Root, etc)

One of the workarounds for those affected calls for making SELinux permissive.

SELinux, of course, only works on a Linux kernel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux

https://source.android.com/security/selinux

But, apparently, Android isn't Linux..................

Just another example of how people try too hard to create goalposts to say Android isn't Linux when those goalposts don't exist for anything else.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#153

Post by diminish »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #139

I'd be shocked if it took off. The FOSS development paradigm seems to be allergic to good UI design, and this is far more important for people on mobile than desktop.

On the other hand, I think designers aren't that into contributing to FOSS - traditionally designers have been more on "paid" side of computation.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#154

Post by mpol »

And yet I am using a Linux Phone since 2014 as a daily driver :) And no, it is not for everyone, just like the Linux desktop. It would need a company like Nokia to put its weight behind it to bring it that far.

But if a smaller company like Jolla can do it, it can be sustainable. If there are users and enough money coming in, all it needs to do is exist. And maybe some day there will be a company like Nokia putting its weight behind it and it can gain marketshare in big numbers. But even without it, it is a viable platform, just with some drawbacks.

So yes, for the near future I keep on using my Sony Xperia with Sailfish OS. I also keep an eye on the Pinephone and Librem 5, but today they are not ready to be a daily driver for me.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#155

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

colordrops wrote: post #145
j-james wrote: post #114

I don't understand the desire for a Linux phone as so described in the article as a daily driver. The Android platform represents an enormous amount of work that encompasses a more secure base kernel, an unparalleled selection of applications designed for mobile usage and written in a memory-safe language, fantastic sandboxing and user privacy features leagues ahead of any desktop operating system, and great diversit…

Yes, Android is mature and secure, but it's not private . No one seems to talk about this much, but there are a few Android "features" that had to be designed by sociopaths. The main one for me is the complete lack of control of network traffic. Other than a VPN loopback app, which is pretty janky, there is no way to disable network traffic per app. Even with a VPN loopback, there is no way to only allow network traf…

By the way, my colleague has some crappy Huawei phone, which previously killed background apps [1], but this week received an update that changed the behaviour to simply disabling them from accessing the internet.

[1]: https://dontkillmyapp.com

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#156

Post by 1_player »

diminish wrote: post #153
AussieWog93 wrote: post #139

I'd be shocked if it took off. The FOSS development paradigm seems to be allergic to good UI design, and this is far more important for people on mobile than desktop.

On the other hand, I think designers aren't that into contributing to FOSS - traditionally designers have been more on "paid" side of computation.

Not sure about that, I just think that "design" has a lower barrier to entry.

A pure designer cannot one day find themselves writing code for a major piece of opensource software.

A pure programmer can find themselves arranging some UI and designing a logo on Inkscape, that won't look and feel great.

Put the two together and something magical can happen, though not always, as design is so easy the programmer can be overcome with hubris and discard or ignore the designer advice and do the designing himself, with obvious results.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#157

Post by amelius »

diminish wrote: post #153
AussieWog93 wrote: post #139

I'd be shocked if it took off. The FOSS development paradigm seems to be allergic to good UI design, and this is far more important for people on mobile than desktop.

On the other hand, I think designers aren't that into contributing to FOSS - traditionally designers have been more on "paid" side of computation.

Or perhaps there are too many designers? Or overconfident programmers who think they can do the design work?

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#158

Post by pjmlp »

techrat wrote: post #152
pjmlp wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Termux is on the death bed, because they refuse to ackowledge Android isn't Linux and make use of Java APIs for their purposes. So given that from Google's point of view POSIX and Linux syscalls aren't public APIs on Android, termux no longer works on latest Android versions and it will get worse, as NDK APIs keep being locked down as sandbox improvements.

I'd argue that if you were set on using something like Termux, you're already in the class of users who are most likely to be running custom Roms (eg, LineageOS) or having a modified stock image (Magisk, Root, etc) One of the workarounds for those affected calls for making SELinux permissive. SELinux, of course, only works on a Linux kernel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security-Enhanced_Linux https://source.android…

Please provide the Android documentation how to access LinuxSE on non-rooted devices, you know those that regular consumers actually buy and app developers get their income from.

Just another example on how Linux die hards try to make juice out of lemons, to pivot Linux dominance on consumer devices.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#159

Post by raverbashing »

Ok time to be honest, the "change in corporate strategy" is not the real reason why they failed

They failed because they lacked focus and money

I didn't like the whole Android idea of getting out of the OpenDesktop space, "java first" but they were right to cut the whole thing off and simplify everything.

X doesn't belong on a phone. GTK doesn't belong neither (at least not how it's used by most apps)

Linux is great but the userspace not so much, and integrating all vendor drivers, etc is a PITA as well. Google was right to be hyperfocused on shipping a phone, and not putting the libraries or tech first

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#160

Post by rjzzleep »

amelius wrote: post #157
diminish wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I think designers aren't that into contributing to FOSS - traditionally designers have been more on "paid" side of computation.

Or perhaps there are too many designers? Or overconfident programmers who think they can do the design work?

I'd say it's neither. Demoscene is a good example of when designers and programmers were working well together.

Deviantart was a huge platform where people would share art and designs/skins. To some extent that still exists for iOS views.

I think one thing that's different about the deviantart model was that back then apps used to have skinning interfaces. And then designers could focus on just skinning. You could argue that gnome themes are like that. I would disagree, but also skinning isn't quite the same as doing ux.

UI/UX on Mac is a lot easier than UI/UX on gtk applications or QT applications.

On top of that, I don't think most designers understand OSS. It's basically a different universe and these two world don't often interact.

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