Will Linux phones stay around this time? • Hacker News Board

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#101

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sun, May 02, 2021, 5:05 AM UTC

oneplane wrote: post #29

jchw wrote: post #6

I enjoy the Pinephone, but it certainly has its issues. I’d kill for better performance; it’s very close to usability. I also have some issues with the hardware (it seems my battery has stopped working entirely, recently.) On the other hand, there is one confounding software issue that I think makes it the hardest as a full replacement for a modern smartphone: push notifications. An equivalent for APNS or FCM that al…

Without mass-market and the scale that comes with it (including returning income from existing users) it's near impossible to provide the same nice UX as an iPhone or a Google-riddled Android phone. That's the whole problem with most projects and why they neither produce acceptable usability nor a an acceptable price point. It's not that it's not technically possible, it's just infeasible without becoming yet another…

I keep wondering why nobody just supersets Android. Even just having an Android phone which is designed to be repairable and have drivers in the kernel tree so it isn't tied to a specific kernel version, people would pay for that.

And then on top of it you can add all of your Google-alternative libraries and services, which need not be perfect immediately to get people to use it because they can start off running Android apps and buying it for the open hardware. But as you get more users, the software improves too.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#102

Post by moepstar » Sun, May 02, 2021, 5:13 AM UTC

robolange wrote: post #19

Openmoko failed for so much more than financial reasons. It's been a while since I've thought of that fiasco, but my memories: * The leadership was terrible. They had no clue what it took to make a mass market product. They just assumed that they would sell hardware and a community would provide a working operating system and apps magically. * The hardware was buggy. There was one issue that if you let the battery dr…

I recall that, even if only with disgust.

I've also had a Freerunner, in theory the ideal pocket computer with Linux on it.

Practically, you could barely have a phone call with all the echo going on and navigation-wise it took _ages_ to find its GPS fix (no AGPS iirc) - the shielded antenna, mentioned down-thread, probably didn't help.

And yeah, whatever you had on screen was probably way too small to be read or interacted with :(

I think i got rid of it on eBay after a few weeks...

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#103

Post by cookiengineer » Sun, May 02, 2021, 5:13 AM UTC

This is kind of anecdotal to Meego, WebOS, FirefoxOS and all the other forms of them that happened in the past.

I don't think that people will use the phone solely because it's Linux. They'll use it if it can solve their tasks at hand.

Personally I think that Linux will never take off if we won't create financial incentives to make and deploy apps, additionally to fix the mess that's user rights/permission management in GTK and QT.

Currently there are no working native alternatives on Linux, libhandy is still a joke for simple tasks like a fading sidebar (or even swipe gestures!) and QT can't be used for anything serious due to their license.

My hope for servo, FirefoxOS and WebOS was that there will be some day an alternative to Electron that's focussed on permissions and sandboxing, and that allows to be externally configured and is more modular on the environment (VM) level. Basically like a settings app on Android that can toggle GPS, toggle Networking access, toggle Camera access etc.

Layouting-wise CSS has won the masses. Everyone that tries to reinvent it for their own opinionated views has failed and given up (including me who spent over 6 years developing an isomorphic App Engine full-time). It's time to let go. The web has won and there's no point in denying it.

React has won most of the developer crowd because of React Native and convenience of staying in the same language and more importantly, being able to reuse the same code architecture.

I think in order for Linux to succeed there has to be a compile pipeline (and runtime?) that allows to deploy those apps easily. If that's not possible (due to whatever reasons) the platform will never really take off.

Privacy and Security and Openness is just no argument for the average user that doesn't care and just wants to get their tasks done.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#104

Post by cuu508 » Sun, May 02, 2021, 5:20 AM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #101

oneplane wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without mass-market and the scale that comes with it (including returning income from existing users) it's near impossible to provide the same nice UX as an iPhone or a Google-riddled Android phone. That's the whole problem with most projects and why they neither produce acceptable usability nor a an acceptable price point. It's not that it's not technically possible, it's just infeasible without becoming yet another…

I keep wondering why nobody just supersets Android. Even just having an Android phone which is designed to be repairable and have drivers in the kernel tree so it isn't tied to a specific kernel version, people would pay for that. And then on top of it you can add all of your Google-alternative libraries and services, which need not be perfect immediately to get people to use it because they can start off running And…

The mass market does not care about repairable hardware or open drivers.

Using niche open SoC will make the device slower and/or more expensive. The mass market cares about price and performance.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#105

Post by loosescrews » Sun, May 02, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

m4rtink wrote: post #76

hpoe wrote: post #5

Anyone know of any good Linux phones. Mine is going to be dead soon and for a while I liked Pixel because it didn't have all the Samsung or Motorola or anytime else bloatware, but with what Google has been doing I'd prefer a full Linux phone. I've looked a Librem but $1500 is kind of hard to justify when I have all my other expenses that come with a young family. Anyone have any suggestions?

I have been using the officially supported Sailfis OS on Sony Xperia devices for years as my main device: https://jolla.com/sailfishx/ The idea is you buy one of the supported Xperia phones, buy a Sailfish OS license and flash it on the phone. The license you bought pays for continued software updates (new features & security fixes) as well some external software they integrate (predictive typing support & android ap…

Also note that Sailfish is fairly inexpensive. My current Sailfish phone (Xperia 10) cost me ~$200 USD new including the license from Jolla.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#106

Post by mempko » Sun, May 02, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

m4rtink wrote: post #76

hpoe wrote: post #5

Anyone know of any good Linux phones. Mine is going to be dead soon and for a while I liked Pixel because it didn't have all the Samsung or Motorola or anytime else bloatware, but with what Google has been doing I'd prefer a full Linux phone. I've looked a Librem but $1500 is kind of hard to justify when I have all my other expenses that come with a young family. Anyone have any suggestions?

I have been using the officially supported Sailfis OS on Sony Xperia devices for years as my main device: https://jolla.com/sailfishx/ The idea is you buy one of the supported Xperia phones, buy a Sailfish OS license and flash it on the phone. The license you bought pays for continued software updates (new features & security fixes) as well some external software they integrate (predictive typing support & android ap…

I am using Sailfish OS with Sony XA2. It's my daily driver and has been for years. Jolla still releases updates with new features and UI fixes. They also have been upgrading their Android support and most of the apps I care about work well.

Going to buy the Sony 10 II once they release support for it.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#107

Post by sto_hristo » Sun, May 02, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

Linux desktop is nowhere due to the thousands of distributions and disparity in development effort. A linux phone is simply unthinkable. Biggest strength in android/ios is the centralized leadership and vision. This enables consumers to make an easy choice, which attracts developers, who all seek predictability and maximum exposure.

But even if the linux community centralizes around a singularity, it will still be no-compete, since android/ios have superior momentum. You can't race against Bolt when you have a late start and Bolt is already 5 meters from the finishing line.

What it would take is a paradigm shift. Apple sunk Nokia (and the whole mobile world) by innovating.

Android/ios are locked down ad platforms running on superior hardware that the user merely "rents" from the supplier. A device that features an unlocked OS that doesn't limit itself to its form factor is going to drown everything else. Android already has begun to do half of that - it has initial desktop mode support. Some manufacturers like motorola and samsung have their own awesome-looking take on desktop mode. It's only a matter of time consumers embrace this and throw their useless laptops. Current phones have as much or more ram than my last office PC, so think of just this: hook an usbc cable to a random monitor, presto - desktop computer in your pocket you can do work on.

Just take a look at this demo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIh07q_9Ib0

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#108

Post by toastal » Sun, May 02, 2021, 5:46 AM UTC

benatkin wrote: post #36

perardi wrote: post #35

So how would a Linux phone possibly gain momentum? I have no idea how it solves any job to be done for almost anyone. Does it have the apps I want, including for my bank? Does it have a great camera? Does it have fantastic battery life? Right now, the answer to all of that is definitely not , and it becomes a chicken and an egg problem, where you don’t have the investment to build all that. And don’t give me the obvi…

You may have a point, but Android and Apple phones are also, quite frankly, garbage. I open the maps app on my Android phone, and I get a bunch of ads littered around, for places like 7/11, even for locations that are closed! I have a 64gb phone and the map for the city I'm in could be quite easily downloaded, but nope, it must contain Google's malware.

This is why I love the offline ad-free maps of OpenStreetMap. In underdevelop areas I may need to refer to Google to find a location, and when I get there, I upload the location with finer-grained details and now I can find the place again and help others.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#109

Post by dannyw » Sun, May 02, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

29athrowaway wrote: post #93

Smartphones = bunch of untrusted apps = security requirements Is there an app store + readily available sandboxing solution that allows people to install some random guy's game on their phone without getting their credit card stolen?

Yeah, hate it if you want, but Ubuntu Snaps.

Re: Will Linux phones stay around this time?

#110

Post by yosito » Sun, May 02, 2021, 6:08 AM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #58

dehrmann wrote: post #31

What's the benefit to a true Linux phone over running LineageOS? LineageOS at least is essentially Android, so the ecosystem is there.

Android apps are becoming more and more dependent on the closed source blobs that Google ships with Android devices, so some apps might not work without them. Although microG exists, it isn't perfect and some apps still won't run with it. A Linux phone can forgo Google's userspace libraries for Android, and if they're really needed, Android can just run in a container like with Anbox. Instead, it can ship with the ty…

Your comment doesn't describe any benefit for users. Maybe a benefit for some developers who consider ideological technology choices a benefit. But users gain nothing.