We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought • Hacker News Board

Re: We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought

#31

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:01 PM UTC

Anointmous wrote: post #24

dragonwriter wrote: post #18

> The original Constitution says that our “unalienable rights” are a result not of secular rationalism, but rather an omnipotent God who endows us with those rights. No, it doesn’t. The author confuses apropaganda document (the Declaration of Independence, which still doesn’t make this specific claim—it does reference rights being endowed by a Creator, but does not specifically attribute omnipotence to that Creator)…

[flagged]

> An Appeal to the "Supreme Judge of the World"

That’s also in the Declaration, not the Constitution, and also does not include the author’s description of omnipotence.

> Like I said, most of the commentators aren't even from America.

That’s...both unsupported and a particularly bizarre ad hominem, but I am an American (and, probably more relevant, have a degree in political science with a course of study focussed on the American system), but its not like the main problem claims about the US system here require particular expertise beyond, you know, reading the readily-available text of foundational documents.

> But they sure are commenting like they were.

I’m not sure what “commenting like they were [Americans]” means in this context.

Re: We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought

#32

Post by jwhitlark » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:15 PM UTC

nobodyCloak wrote: post #9

markemer wrote: post #5

Yeah, this is a load of nonsense. The worst part is this essays ahistorical line of thinking. Like highlighting the Romans bad behavior without examining things like the crusades and chattel slavery which used Christianity as a defense. And it’s Christian supremacist since he leaves out the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other religion that believes in human rights.

I think you may be missing the point of the essay. I don’t think it meant to say that Christianity is perfect nor that Christianity is the supreme religion. Of course Christianity has been used to justify hateful conduct (just like most other religions at some point) but regardless it more than anything else is responsible for how “Western Civilization” developed, and by extension our understanding of human rights. Y…

Greece and Rome's civic and philosophical development was the source of how Western Civilization developed. Christianity was then transplanted on top of Western Civilization; it wasn't the source. The author is either mistaken or arguing in bad faith, and makes numerous factually incorrect statements. He argues the Locke "assumed" God given rights, and states that there are no other legitimate sources, despite there being a large body of work in the 3rd century BCE that made logical arguments for treating all of humanity equally. Similarly, in his Meditations, Marcus Aurelius argues that gods or atoms, your first responsibility is to the human race.

The author would have us forget that much of the Enlightenment came from the rediscovery of Greek and Roman knowledge.

The whole article reads as an attempt to convince atheists that they're not really atheist, that all their ideas came from religion and are worthless without religion, completely ignoring the role philosophy had in creating those ideas, long before Christianity was on the scene.

Re: We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought

#33

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:20 PM UTC

markemer wrote: post #5

Yeah, this is a load of nonsense. The worst part is this essays ahistorical line of thinking. Like highlighting the Romans bad behavior without examining things like the crusades and chattel slavery which used Christianity as a defense. And it’s Christian supremacist since he leaves out the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other religion that believes in human rights.

[deleted]

Re: We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought

#34

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #31

Anointmous wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> An Appeal to the "Supreme Judge of the World" That’s also in the Declaration, not the Constitution, and also does not include the author’s description of omnipotence. > Like I said, most of the commentators aren't even from America. That’s...both unsupported and a particularly bizarre ad hominem, but I am an American (and, probably more relevant, have a degree in political science with a course of study focussed on…

[deleted]

Re: We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought

#35

Post by thinkingemote » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

Has the title been changed?

Re: We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought

#36

Post by minimal1 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #31

Anointmous wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> An Appeal to the "Supreme Judge of the World" That’s also in the Declaration, not the Constitution, and also does not include the author’s description of omnipotence. > Like I said, most of the commentators aren't even from America. That’s...both unsupported and a particularly bizarre ad hominem, but I am an American (and, probably more relevant, have a degree in political science with a course of study focussed on…

"(the Declaration of Independence, which still doesn’t make this specific claim—it does reference rights being endowed by a Creator, but does not specifically attribute omnipotence to that Creator)".

I'm sure the reference was to Supreme Judge of the World, and no omnipotence. You need to write more carefully.

Re: We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought

#37

Post by truth_ » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

pkphilip wrote: post #25

markemer wrote: post #5

Yeah, this is a load of nonsense. The worst part is this essays ahistorical line of thinking. Like highlighting the Romans bad behavior without examining things like the crusades and chattel slavery which used Christianity as a defense. And it’s Christian supremacist since he leaves out the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other religion that believes in human rights.

Hinduism most certainly does not believe in a common set of rights for everyone. Each person is assigned a clear position in the social hierarchy based on the caste of the parents and then the person is obligated to carry out the "dharma" as per that caste - anything outside of that is considered "adharmic" or wrong.

But Buddhism does recognize human rights.

I was just reading some days ago how Buddhist emperor Ashoka the Great abolished discriminating policy of a Brahmin never being punished to death irrespective of the nature and severity of the crime while it was allowed for other castes.

Buddhism is one of the rare religion that does not recognize divine rights of kings. In Buddhist mythology a king is like everyone else who merely gets 1/6th of the harvest and maintains peace and protects from external threats. He is jist another man. Christinaity and Islam, on the other hand, do vastly believe in divine rights of kings.

The aspect of Hinduism that you mention was actually practiced, but the inner core of Philosophy tells the division among men emanate from their quality and practice. Birth does not matter. But, in mythology, when a low caste man named Shambuka tried to study the Vedas, the Ramayana epic king and Vishnu incarnation Rama murders him.

Re: We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought

#38

Post by minimal1 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:50 PM UTC

truth_ wrote: post #37

pkphilip wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hinduism most certainly does not believe in a common set of rights for everyone. Each person is assigned a clear position in the social hierarchy based on the caste of the parents and then the person is obligated to carry out the "dharma" as per that caste - anything outside of that is considered "adharmic" or wrong.

But Buddhism does recognize human rights. I was just reading some days ago how Buddhist emperor Ashoka the Great abolished discriminating policy of a Brahmin never being punished to death irrespective of the nature and severity of the crime while it was allowed for other castes. Buddhism is one of the rare religion that does not recognize divine rights of kings. In Buddhist mythology a king is like everyone else who…

Most of the Reformation was about not believing in the divine rights of kings, and the entire concept (not rightly understood here, but not going into it) was not universal anyway. In example, angle saxon kings (where english, "anglo-is" comes from, were elected.

Re: We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought

#39

Post by jkereako » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:58 PM UTC

markemer wrote: post #5

Yeah, this is a load of nonsense. The worst part is this essays ahistorical line of thinking. Like highlighting the Romans bad behavior without examining things like the crusades and chattel slavery which used Christianity as a defense. And it’s Christian supremacist since he leaves out the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other religion that believes in human rights.

To flatly reject the author’s argument just proves his point. Specifically that folks don’t consider the origin of American values and law (he used the Constitution as an example if you recall) as being Christian. This is also why he didn’t mention the other belief systems you stated because they weren’t considered when America was created.

Secondly, just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn’t mean they are. A true believer in any faith would hold fast and true to all of that belief system’s values. He made note of this by pointing out “Cafeteria Christians”. It’s the same as blaming the law when it’s really the application of the law that’s the problem. Socrates and his willingness to drink the hemlock is an example of this.

Re: We are desensitized to Christianity’s influence on Western thought

#40

Post by jwhitlark » Sat, May 01, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

jkereako wrote: post #39

markemer wrote: post #5

Yeah, this is a load of nonsense. The worst part is this essays ahistorical line of thinking. Like highlighting the Romans bad behavior without examining things like the crusades and chattel slavery which used Christianity as a defense. And it’s Christian supremacist since he leaves out the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and any other religion that believes in human rights.

To flatly reject the author’s argument just proves his point. Specifically that folks don’t consider the origin of American values and law (he used the Constitution as an example if you recall) as being Christian. This is also why he didn’t mention the other belief systems you stated because they weren’t considered when America was created. Secondly, just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn’t mean they are…

Except the origins of American values and law went back farther than Christianity. An easy way to see that is to look at how many pamphlets of the time had (Pre-Christian) Roman pseudonyms.

The author is claiming otherwise and failing to back it up.