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Elementary OS 6 beta

blog.elementary.io

51–60 of 70 posts

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#51

I very much appreciate all of the hard work that goes into striving for a consistent, beautiful UX in ElementaryOS. It feels like there is a driving vision behind all of the design and usability choices. The move to Inter as a UI font will be a good step forward, as Open Sans has not aged well. Especially as displays are higher and higher DPI, another good step forward would be to completely disable font hinting. It'…

Inter, IMO is a terrible choice for a UI font. It’s the exact reason why Apple switched from Helvetica [1]. If you want to learn more, see the difference between Apple’s SF Pro, SF Pro Display and SF Pro Text. Inter is a font that fits neither as a body text (fitting is awfully inconsistent), as a display typeface and certainly not as an interface typeface (counters are too tight, fitting needs to be redone specifically for interfaces, hinting is lacking and it is untested on various DPI settings and optimizations that someone like Apple has put effort into).

For the record, I think Apple’s UI has gotten worse but they’ve hired one of the best Typographers in the world. They did several presentations in WWDC 2016.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typography_of_Apple_Inc.#Helve...

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#52
post #8

It looks like there is still no fractional scaling out of the box (always possible with hacks). The elementary team has defended the choice not to introduce it before [1], but it just makes it unusable for me and many other users. KDE Plasma handles fractional scaling well. Gnome does it mostly fine on Wayland. Now you can also run Gnome on X11 with fractional scaling (at least with Pop OS [2]). There's a cost of run…

Does KDE handle fractional scaling better than Gnome? I use Gnome on X11 and there are problems I run into (AMD GPU if that matters). I end up having to run my 4k display on 1440 to make it usable, which is really unfortunate. Wayland at 4k with fractional scaling has a bunch of visual bugs for me as well.

If KDE handles these things better, I'll jump ship in a heart beat.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#53
post #8

It looks like there is still no fractional scaling out of the box (always possible with hacks). The elementary team has defended the choice not to introduce it before [1], but it just makes it unusable for me and many other users. KDE Plasma handles fractional scaling well. Gnome does it mostly fine on Wayland. Now you can also run Gnome on X11 with fractional scaling (at least with Pop OS [2]). There's a cost of run…

More recent threads about fractional scaling on elementary include the comment "[fractional scaling] is blocked by moving to Wayland".

I can understand the developers not wanting to implement a FS hack that will likely be replaced soon anyway, when the project priority is supposed to be UX innovation. I can also understand delaying the move to Wayland until it meets the standards for stability. But in the meantime it's a frustrating situation, since the likely catalyst will be Ubuntu's 22.04 LTS moving to Wayland, and it's a barrier for many users.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#54
post #53
post #8

It looks like there is still no fractional scaling out of the box (always possible with hacks). The elementary team has defended the choice not to introduce it before [1], but it just makes it unusable for me and many other users. KDE Plasma handles fractional scaling well. Gnome does it mostly fine on Wayland. Now you can also run Gnome on X11 with fractional scaling (at least with Pop OS [2]). There's a cost of run…

More recent threads about fractional scaling on elementary include the comment "[fractional scaling] is blocked by moving to Wayland". I can understand the developers not wanting to implement a FS hack that will likely be replaced soon anyway, when the project priority is supposed to be UX innovation. I can also understand delaying the move to Wayland until it meets the standards for stability. But in the meantime it…

FS isn't hard to implement, you scale by integer factor and scale down the buffer to fit the screen.

This is literally how masOS does it. And they've basically pioneered the concept of scaling for high DPI screen when they introduce Retina.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#55
post #39
post #8

It looks like there is still no fractional scaling out of the box (always possible with hacks). The elementary team has defended the choice not to introduce it before [1], but it just makes it unusable for me and many other users. KDE Plasma handles fractional scaling well. Gnome does it mostly fine on Wayland. Now you can also run Gnome on X11 with fractional scaling (at least with Pop OS [2]). There's a cost of run…

I think it’s a fair philosophical choice. Fractional scaling is really hard. macOS doesn’t bother, choosing instead to render at an integer scale factor and downsample. Doing something similar on Linux would be hard, for mostly historical reasons. At first blush, it felt like a copout to have the compositor downsample. After all, wouldn’t that be blurry? Then it occurred to me: it’s always going to be blurry. You can…

> I think it’s a fair philosophical choice. Fractional scaling is really hard. macOS doesn’t bother, choosing instead to render at an integer scale factor and downsample. Doing something similar on Linux would be hard, for mostly historical reasons.

What macOS does is the cleanest and most correct way to fractionally scale in my book.

Why would it be hard on Linux? You just blit the buffer at whatever resolution you want.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#56
post #52
post #8

It looks like there is still no fractional scaling out of the box (always possible with hacks). The elementary team has defended the choice not to introduce it before [1], but it just makes it unusable for me and many other users. KDE Plasma handles fractional scaling well. Gnome does it mostly fine on Wayland. Now you can also run Gnome on X11 with fractional scaling (at least with Pop OS [2]). There's a cost of run…

Does KDE handle fractional scaling better than Gnome? I use Gnome on X11 and there are problems I run into (AMD GPU if that matters). I end up having to run my 4k display on 1440 to make it usable, which is really unfortunate. Wayland at 4k with fractional scaling has a bunch of visual bugs for me as well. If KDE handles these things better, I'll jump ship in a heart beat.

Yes it seems to be pretty flawless in my experience, at least. KDE (3/4) used to feel very bloated for me, I find Plasma just stays out of my way.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#57
post #6

I'd love to use Elementary OS, but their use of Vala is just such a turn off. That language is dead except for a tiny gnome niche. If they wanted the mac devs for their sleek look and feel they could have switched to swift. And if they wanted to gain easy popularity they could have switched to rust. But vala... there is no developer pool to draw people from, and they're not apple where ObjC might have been an obscure…

> switch to rust

All roads lead to...

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#58
post #3

I'm not entirely sure how to feel about the Flatpak-centric application ecosystem. Reminder: https://flatkill.org

Wow! I never saw that site but it is FULL of misinformation and purposely claiming misleading "facts". I like how there is absolutely no contact info, as this tool knows he's full of crap.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#59

I very much appreciate all of the hard work that goes into striving for a consistent, beautiful UX in ElementaryOS. It feels like there is a driving vision behind all of the design and usability choices. The move to Inter as a UI font will be a good step forward, as Open Sans has not aged well. Especially as displays are higher and higher DPI, another good step forward would be to completely disable font hinting. It'…

Inter, IMO is a terrible choice for a UI font. It’s the exact reason why Apple switched from Helvetica [1]. If you want to learn more, see the difference between Apple’s SF Pro, SF Pro Display and SF Pro Text. Inter is a font that fits neither as a body text (fitting is awfully inconsistent), as a display typeface and certainly not as an interface typeface (counters are too tight, fitting needs to be redone specifica…

I absolutely agree. I tried Inter the other day for my interface, and everything immediately felt wrong. However, I then tried using it on my résumé, and it looked fantastic! On the Apple note, I agree that SF is a pretty good font, but it's also not without it's issues (which are being exacerbated in updates like Big Sur).

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#60
post #55
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s a fair philosophical choice. Fractional scaling is really hard. macOS doesn’t bother, choosing instead to render at an integer scale factor and downsample. Doing something similar on Linux would be hard, for mostly historical reasons. At first blush, it felt like a copout to have the compositor downsample. After all, wouldn’t that be blurry? Then it occurred to me: it’s always going to be blurry. You can…

> I think it’s a fair philosophical choice. Fractional scaling is really hard. macOS doesn’t bother, choosing instead to render at an integer scale factor and downsample. Doing something similar on Linux would be hard, for mostly historical reasons. What macOS does is the cleanest and most correct way to fractionally scale in my book. Why would it be hard on Linux? You just blit the buffer at whatever resolution you…

In Wayland this is simple. In Xorg it is not because the X protocol contains no knowledge of what scaling factor your app is rendering at. The server doesn’t know about DPI scaling. You can’t just make things “appear” as if they’re a different scale factor; X apps get real pixel coordinates in their events, directly from the X server.

The Wayland compositor is aware of what DPI every surface is in a given frame exactly, and it has a unified protocol to advertise it.

What macOS does is not terrible, but downsampling from 2x to 1.5x will look a decent bit worse than say 3x to 1.5x or rendering at actual 1.5x. In theory with today’s Wayland protocol, as far as I know, a surface could set its own DPI to 2x or 3x and get the desired behavior today. However it definitely isn’t free...

Because of text rendering. Apple is a very... idealistic company. From the very beginning of their use of anti-aliased vector fonts, it’s clear that they did not want hacks like pixel grid fitting or subpixel anti-aliasing that compromises the integrity of the font or ties the rendering closely to the way it is blitted. The way they made up for this was ultimately by shipping HiDPI displays in most of their devices. That way, the blurry rendering became more palatable.

Now don’t get me wrong: I’m not saying it looks unusable at 1.5x or 2x scaled down to 1.5x. It just looks dramatically less crisp than actual 1.5x with subpixel anti-aliasing. But you can’t scale a surface with subpixel anti-aliasing without defeating it because the process of scaling will treat the different subpixels of rendered text as just RGB values. This looks terrible. Even worse is if you are using hinting on top of that - now you are grid fitting to a grid that has no correlation to the actual grid of the display, thus, hinting actually just makes things look worse while compromising the integrity of the outlines.

Granted, upscaling 1x has some of these issues and it is passable. Still ugly, but it doesn’t look unusably bad. But it is still quite wrong.

Turning off hinting and subpixel AA might seem like the right call, but I don’t think so. For some languages, like East Asian languages, subpixel AA can add visual clarity that makes it much easier to read complex glyphs. While for English it is merely a creature comfort, for some languages it might provide a much needed legibility improvement.

All of this is what I was trying to subtly allude to near the end, but oh well :)

tl;dr: The X server itself is not aware of window DPI, and cannot virtualize pixels in events and protocols. Wayland compositors are, but it is still maturing and software and hardware compatibility is gradually working its way up. And OSes other than macOS use tricks like hinting and subpixel AA to improve font legibility which do not play terribly well with framebuffer scaling.

Tl;still dr: doing this would be hard for historical reasons :)

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