Washington state approves capital gains tax • Hacker News Board

Re: Washington state approves capital gains tax

#261

Post by syshum » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

fighterpilot wrote: post #259

Consultant32452 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As opposed to the current system where they still pollute, they still kill you, but you're not even allowed to sue because the state owns the air/water and lets them pollute and you get no compensation.

It's a good point that the air being fully public leads to a tragedy of the commons situation. Either way, we're asking a lot of the comperence of the system. If the air were privatized we'd still need a legal system that isn't corrupted by special interests. Since it'd still be (I'm assuming) a representative democratic process that creates that system, corporatism is still possible. Thoughts? I've always seen a pol…

The only way it would be remotely libertarian would be if you upended the entire tax system and replaced it with Single Tax system aka Geo-Libertarianism...

But that is not in the cards, and no one is proposing that, they want to ADD these externality based taxation ON TOP of the tax on productivity

Re: Washington state approves capital gains tax

#262

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, May 01, 2021, 1:51 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #261

fighterpilot wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a good point that the air being fully public leads to a tragedy of the commons situation. Either way, we're asking a lot of the comperence of the system. If the air were privatized we'd still need a legal system that isn't corrupted by special interests. Since it'd still be (I'm assuming) a representative democratic process that creates that system, corporatism is still possible. Thoughts? I've always seen a pol…

The only way it would be remotely libertarian would be if you upended the entire tax system and replaced it with Single Tax system aka Geo-Libertarianism... But that is not in the cards, and no one is proposing that, they want to ADD these externality based taxation ON TOP of the tax on productivity

I agree that in practice it's largely a ploy to get more revenue to the state.

But at the same time, the tax itself seems to follow from a first principles examination of Libertarian axioms.

Negative externalities can be seen as a violation of the Non-Aggression Principle. The role of the state in a Libertarian framework is to protect individuals from such unwanted force by enacting force onto the aggressor. An externality tax would be one practical way to achieve that, and therefore seems wholly consistent with the Libertarian view.

Re: Washington state approves capital gains tax

#263

Post by [deleted] » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:26 PM UTC

philwelch wrote: post #39

verst wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first 250k in profits from capital gains are exempt. It is estimated that this tax only affects the 7000 richest individuals in Washington. Keep in mind we don't have any income taxes here.

These taxes always start off only affecting the richest of the rich, until the government decides it needs more revenue.

[deleted]

Re: Washington state approves capital gains tax

#264

Post by nojvek » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:37 PM UTC

This is going to make house prices shoot even higher. They tax stock sales but not real estate.

Real estate has another loop where the first 250k gain (not sure exact number) from sell of private residence isn’t taxed.

So people have one house for husband, one for their wife. When you own a house and live it in for more than an year, that can be marked as primary residence.

Also mortgage interest is deductible.

In so many ways housing comes out as a good investment due to tax savings. Since it’s supply is limited, it becomes a frenzy driving sky high prices.

If we want to fix housing costs in Washington, we ought to address the tax incentives. Housing should be seen as a place to live, not an asset to hold.

I can’t even imagine how youngsters nowadays can even afford a single family home. A decent 3-4 bedroom is now 1M+, it’s kind of crazy.

Re: Washington state approves capital gains tax

#265

Post by dragonwriter » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #46

I recently came across this comment by Philip Greenspun: “if you bought an asset for $10,000 in 2000, for example, the BLS says you spent $15,700 in today’s mini-dollars; if you sell it for $15,000 in 2021 you’ve actually suffered a loss, but will owe capital gains tax nonetheless” ( https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2021/04/29/economic-wisdom... ). I’m not a finance person, and this had never occurred to me. Does he…

> Should the calculation of capital gains take inflation into account?

There is a good argument that capital gains, for fairness, should be taxed the same as other income, on a value calculated by adjusting the basis value for inflation. (Which is very different from maintaining current policy but for adjusting basis value.)

But fairness doesn’t seem to be a motivating principle of the existing capital gains tax in the first place. If you look at it as an effort to encourage the shortest possible “long-term” holding, the existing policy makes perfect sense.

Re: Washington state approves capital gains tax

#266

Post by Consultant32452 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:00 PM UTC

fighterpilot wrote: post #262

syshum wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way it would be remotely libertarian would be if you upended the entire tax system and replaced it with Single Tax system aka Geo-Libertarianism... But that is not in the cards, and no one is proposing that, they want to ADD these externality based taxation ON TOP of the tax on productivity

I agree that in practice it's largely a ploy to get more revenue to the state. But at the same time, the tax itself seems to follow from a first principles examination of Libertarian axioms. Negative externalities can be seen as a violation of the Non-Aggression Principle. The role of the state in a Libertarian framework is to protect individuals from such unwanted force by enacting force onto the aggressor. An exter…

I would add the externality tax funds should be given directly to the harmed population. Those funds going into the general tax ledger fails to compensate the harmed.

Re: Washington state approves capital gains tax

#267

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:06 PM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #266

fighterpilot wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that in practice it's largely a ploy to get more revenue to the state. But at the same time, the tax itself seems to follow from a first principles examination of Libertarian axioms. Negative externalities can be seen as a violation of the Non-Aggression Principle. The role of the state in a Libertarian framework is to protect individuals from such unwanted force by enacting force onto the aggressor. An exter…

I would add the externality tax funds should be given directly to the harmed population. Those funds going into the general tax ledger fails to compensate the harmed.

I mostly agree with that, except for two edge cases:

(1) If the externality tax is used to raise funds for basics such as the police, then it's the lesser evil to have it go to the general ledger. Where else would public funds be raised to fund these basics?

(2) In the rare case that the externality is so broad, it can go to the general ledger, such as with carbon pollution (to the extent that it's harmful). Trying to figure out who is harmed and by how much is itself a bureucratic and potentially wasteful process that can be coopted by government corruption, so we should be weary of that.

Re: Washington state approves capital gains tax

#268

Post by CryptoPunk » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:13 PM UTC

Not only does a tax hike like this redirect capital from individuals working in the market, for consumers, to those working in the state-directed-sectors of the economy, for political leaders, very likely leading to a less efficient allocation of capital, it also:

Discourages productivity for residents of the jurisdiction and capital accumulation within the jurisduction, by reducing the reward for socially beneficial activity, like training and saving/investing money, that improves marketable skills and increases personal wealth, respectively.

Re: Washington state approves capital gains tax

#269

Post by imtringued » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:27 PM UTC

leephillips wrote: post #46

I recently came across this comment by Philip Greenspun: “if you bought an asset for $10,000 in 2000, for example, the BLS says you spent $15,700 in today’s mini-dollars; if you sell it for $15,000 in 2021 you’ve actually suffered a loss, but will owe capital gains tax nonetheless” ( https://philip.greenspun.com/blog/2021/04/29/economic-wisdom... ). I’m not a finance person, and this had never occurred to me. Does he…

In the current economic climate the US is in? Nope.

In Turkey? Absolutely.

US has too much savings and there is strong pressure to get rid of the excess savings.

Turkey has the exact opposite problem, people stop saving in Turkey and they need as many incentives as possible.

Re: Washington state approves capital gains tax

#270

Post by lawnchair_larry » Sat, May 01, 2021, 3:29 PM UTC

Frondo wrote: post #258

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of progressives seem to share this delusion and I find it puzzling. I have no idea who started this meme that there are “right talking points” going around about Portland. If such a thing exists, I have no idea what it is or where it comes from. Rest assured, my talking points are completely original and synthesized by my own senses. I’m in Portland quite frequently and was there earlier this month. I have many…

Frankly, unless you've been doing a somewhat systematic survey of "businesses that have been boarded up" and "businesses that continue to operate as normal" and are doing so across the city (and not the very small part of the city where the protests have been taking place), this seems like an ideal situation to point out that the plural of anecdote is not data.

I’m talking about the riots and antifa/anarchist attacks, not the protests. And it doesn’t matter that there are places that are not being attacked and vandalized. This is of little consolation to the business that are suffering from regular criminal behavior.