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It's your device, you should be able to repair it

bbc.com

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Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#491

Post by fsflover »

zepto wrote: post #425
shard wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going a little bit on a tangent here, and this may not apply so much to recent Apple phones, but Apple phones had planned obsolescence in terms of the design of their physical appearance such that you can tell almost instantly which generation it is. This allows broadcasting of status, that this person can afford the latest while that person can only afford to use a 2-year-old phone, thus artificially driving the…

That isn’t planned obsolescence, because the people who upgrade for status reasons don’t destroy their phones - they either pass them on or trade them in. Arguably it’s the opposite of planned obsolescence - even used phones are not obsolete and are still in circulation. It’s also worth pointing out that this is Apple’s stated policy - they want phones to last longer so that more people have them and they can continu…

> That isn’t planned obsolescence, because the people who upgrade for status reasons don’t destroy their phones

This has nothing to do with the definition of planned obsolescence. It does not matter what people do with the old phones.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#492

Post by kalleboo »

ghaff wrote: post #345
vkou wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A big reason that stuff isn't replaceable anymore is because consumers wants some of the benefits that come w/ non-replaceable parts. This may be true, but we shouldn't confuse 'a decision made by a product manager' with 'the customers want this'. Some design decisions succeed because of the other strengths of a product (and the competition cargo-cult copies them), not because they are good design decisions. Some d…

>yet you need to flip the cable over three times before you can plug it in I used to know one of the folks involved with the USB standard pretty well professionally. At one point, he told me that this aspect of USB is one thing he wished they could have dealt with differently. (That said, the fact that the mini and micro versions are more explicitly keyed doesn't make that much of a different and I assume that a USB-…

> I assume that a USB-C or Lightning-type design just wasn't possible at the time without undesirable tradeoffs

Interestingly, reversible USB-A cables are readily available (at least here in Japan). They just have a too-thin "lip" in the middle which is prone to breaking. https://www.sanwa.co.jp/product/syohin.asp?code=KU-RMCB2W

I think it's just that nobody thought of it when the plug was designed, because this wasn't a problem that serial cables etc before USB-A had (and even USB-B is keyed!)

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#493

Post by joshspankit »

scientismer wrote: post #476
joshspankit wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated than that and is threatening to get even more complicated. Companies continue to grow larger than countries in both cash flow and influence.

That may be so, but you can still buy from the competition.

I feel like you’re either missing critical information about how companies can make that impossible, or you know and you’re “doing a bit”.

Let me say this outright: Sometimes the “competitors” are working together to maintain a monopoly.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#494

Post by splix »

zepto wrote: post #406
splix wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can redownload supporting apps, but the problem is that the official App Store doesn't have them once a new version of OS comes out. I remember when in 2014 I decided to give away my unused iPad 1st gen, just as a e-reader. So I've erased it but no apps were supporting this device already. Even the official Apple Books app. Yes, techicaly it wasn't bricked, it worked, you still can turn it on and off. But without…

Ok - but that’s true of any old device that developers are no longer targeting. Classic Macs for example.

I understand that a company cannot keep all old software downloadable forever, but note that in this case it was just a four years old device.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#495

Post by throwaway2048 »

giantrobot wrote: post #328
rasz wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, its not optimized for cost. Manufacturing is optimized for _profit_. >they don’t do that to make it harder to repair you mean cryptographically linking lcd screen to motherboard is done for cost, not to stop third parties from being able to repair it?

It's done for security because the screens are primary input devices and linked to the biometric sensors. Without protections for genuine components anyone could replace your screen with one that had a hardware key logger and compromised biometric sensors. The security of the system is as weak as the weakest component. Your phone has access to tons of personal data, for some people just about all of their personal da…

It can be for both reasons at the same time, Apple is absolutely massively incentivized to make 3rd party repairs impossible.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#496

Post by KozmoNau7 »

zepto wrote: post #410
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is planned obsolescence, because at some point I am artificially prevented from installing and running software and/or security updates. This is done by Apple only providing updates up to a certain point, and then keeping the platform locked down, while no longer providing updates. Any closed platform that becomes unsupported and stays locked down is made artificially obsolete. I can buy an original IBM PC, write…

I disagree with the argument that there is any planned obsolescence going on. Lack of support is not the same thing. However this: > Once a device no longer receives updates or official support, it should be opened for hobbyists to experiment with. I agree with and I’d support legislation to that effect.

Apple completely cutting support for first-gen iPads is certainly planned/deliberate obsolescence.

The hardware is fine, well-built and solid, probably still has 50% battery life left at this point. It's not the fastest device, but plenty fast for text and 2D graphics, plus some mild 3D.

But Apple has cut off support, very few apps can run on the old version of iOS it is locked to, and there is no real way of installing a different OS or adding a third-party app store or sideloading apps. Even with a paid developer account, you're severely limited.

That is actively killing off a device that could still be viable and usable to a lot of people, thus planned/deliberate obsolescence.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#497

Post by KozmoNau7 »

spaced-out wrote: post #156
segmondy wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they also going to force "the right to sell" instead of rent? Nothing is stopping companies from renting instead of selling their products. We already see that with software, no one is trying to sell software these days, it's all subscriptions. It could happen with hardware, in which case you don't have the right to repair since it never belonged to you.

I've been wondering if we're going to need to do something like that some day. With the way tech is increasingly getting locked down, what if we end up in a future where all the major computer vendors won't sell you anything, only lease it to you under strict terms, which include the right for them to brick it for any reason. Sure, you can still buy parts and build your own computer, but you can't use it for any bank…

> "With the way tech is increasingly getting locked down, what if we end up in a future where all the major computer vendors won't sell you anything, only lease it to you under strict terms, which include the right for them to brick it for any reason. Sure, you can still buy parts and build your own computer, but you can't use it for any bank or credit card transaction or government website because it's not SECURE."

It is already like this for mobile phones. If I install LineageOS on my Android phone, I will be unable to use various banking and payment apps. My bank's app won't run, their wallet app won't run, the mobile payment app used by nearly everyone won't run. I haven't tested it, but I'm pretty sure I would also be unable to use the official 2-factor authentication app that is used for just about every interaction with any public service and for 3D Secure authentication of card payments.

At least for the 2-factor part, accessibility requirements mean there are other options, including SMS one-time codes and physical cardboard code sheets, but I think it's a matter of time before those are phased out.

If you're not running an iPhone or Android phone with an officially sanctioned OS, you are a second-tier digital citizen at best.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#498

Post by zepto »

fsflover wrote: post #479
zepto wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They effectively become bricks. In other words this was complete bullshit. It’s true that older devices are less capable than newer ones, and you might not want to browse on an old device. But they aren’t bricks.

> older devices are less capable than newer ones Understatement of the year concerning unsupported, insecure and (unreasonably) locked Apple devices.

Not really - I don’t expect a 7 year old device to be a good browser - that technology is a moving target, but I do expect it to still work as a notepad, music player, etc.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#499

Post by zepto »

splix wrote: post #494
zepto wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok - but that’s true of any old device that developers are no longer targeting. Classic Macs for example.

I understand that a company cannot keep all old software downloadable forever, but note that in this case it was just a four years old device.

First gen is the operative word. That device is not representative.

4 years was an eternity in device capability at the time the first gen of the iPad was released.

I’m writing this on a 6 year old iPad Pro that I use every day. Everything runs on it, and it shows no sign of being too slow or even needing a battery replacement.

It seems like the problem has been solved.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#500

Post by zepto »

fsflover wrote: post #491
zepto wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn’t planned obsolescence, because the people who upgrade for status reasons don’t destroy their phones - they either pass them on or trade them in. Arguably it’s the opposite of planned obsolescence - even used phones are not obsolete and are still in circulation. It’s also worth pointing out that this is Apple’s stated policy - they want phones to last longer so that more people have them and they can continu…

> That isn’t planned obsolescence, because the people who upgrade for status reasons don’t destroy their phones This has nothing to do with the definition of planned obsolescence. It does not matter what people do with the old phones.

It obviously does. If the phones are still in service, then by definition they are not obsolete.
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