Live data from Hacker News

Do we have a moral obligation to live for as long as possible?

theconversation.com

21–30 of 78 posts

Re: Do we have a moral obligation to live for as long as possible?

#21
post #9

I'm reminded of/intrigued by Star Trek episodes. How much of our attitude towards end-of-life is "learned" and result of "we have always done it like that"? It's easy to imagine a planet/culture where people chose to go voluntarily and on their own terms and then everybody celebrates around that. I do think it's a high burden on younger generations to pay "up-keep" for older generations, especially when technological…

>How do you justify that especially if one can't contribute much to society anymore and maybe didn't raise kids on your own? Interesting point. I do think it is kind of insane that like 70% of our government money goes to old people. Investing in the past instead of the future? Meanwhile everything else is getting cut, because SS and medicare are "mandatory" spending. The reality is that these old folks did not pay h…

That’s a pretty gross and ignorant perspective. Try reading a little less Paul Ryan.

Apropos to Medicare, I live a block away the president of a local hospital and healthcare network. I remember just before COVID, he drove by in his Porsche and waved, on his way to go on TV to complain about reimbursements from Medicare falling (because the quality of care in the the hospital sucks) and that state government was “killing” them by reducing an increase in Medicaid.

Meanwhile, he makes $30M for what should be a $200k/year civil service job, is in the middle of a massive, unnecessary hospital expansion, funded by Medicare dollars, and cut the salaries of nurses 20% to be “fair” to the employees of a small hospital they purchased with a big infusion of people debt.

Yes, old people should just go and die.

Re: Do we have a moral obligation to live for as long as possible?

#22

As someone for whom this is a real life practical issue, not some idle philosophizing, even asking the question is repugnant to me. I have incurable cancer and at some point I will decide "enough is enough" and I'd like to be euthanized by a doctor. The doctor will then have to decide if my suffering is sufficiently unbearable and only if he comes to that conclusion is he allowed to do it. He'll have to justify his j…

> be euthanized by a doctor.

I wonder if suicide is just easier at this point...

Re: Do we have a moral obligation to live for as long as possible?

#23
post #9

I'm reminded of/intrigued by Star Trek episodes. How much of our attitude towards end-of-life is "learned" and result of "we have always done it like that"? It's easy to imagine a planet/culture where people chose to go voluntarily and on their own terms and then everybody celebrates around that. I do think it's a high burden on younger generations to pay "up-keep" for older generations, especially when technological…

>How much of our attitude towards end-of-life is "learned" and result of "we have always done it like that"? Probably most of it, but there might be a underlying reason for that information to have passed on for thousands of years, across cultures. Either for practical reasons (like they're a source of the accumulation of information and life experience), or because it's out of fear (let us give the example to younge…

End of life care in the last 5 decades is nothing like the previous thousands of years. I have so far had 2 great grandparents live to 100+, 1 great grandparent to 95+, and 2 grandparents to 95+.

All of them did not want medical intervention when their time came. I lived with 2 of the above myself growing up, and one needed dialysis at 93. There was no reason to give them dialysis at that age. It’s brutal for them, the staff, the government spending all this money. Even my grandparent was bewildered at this misplaced priority in society.

I also see many families, especially in traditional ones where the children take care of the parents, spend a ton of their resources on the elderly frequently sacrificing resources that could go to their young. My parents did this, and while I understand they didn’t have a better option for various reasons, but I will not spend a ton of time and energy extending my parents’ lives if it causes me to take away from my kids’. And I wouldn’t want it for myself, obviously.

For now, I hope when the time comes that I have to rely on someone else for basic bodily functions, I will still have the energy (and willpower) to get on a boat and tie a cinderblock to my ankle and go overboard or something.

Re: Do we have a moral obligation to live for as long as possible?

#24

As someone for whom this is a real life practical issue, not some idle philosophizing, even asking the question is repugnant to me. I have incurable cancer and at some point I will decide "enough is enough" and I'd like to be euthanized by a doctor. The doctor will then have to decide if my suffering is sufficiently unbearable and only if he comes to that conclusion is he allowed to do it. He'll have to justify his j…

But euthanasia should not be allowed on a whim. For terminal diseases or other suffering it is more than warranted, but for folks who are going through a depressive episode and want to end their life, they may take a rash decision that they’d regret later. For you, I hope you’re not going to go through too much suffering and will be able to enjoy some quality moments before you leave us.

Re: Do we have a moral obligation to live for as long as possible?

#26
I believe that much of our fundamentalism about maximising lifespan is fueled by fear of a swing in the opposite direction. The slippery slope from "it's ok to not always maximise" to "people routinely get shamed into agreeing to euthanasia" and beyond isn't just imaginative.

But I believe that it's one of those slippery slopes where we need to make up our minds about where we want to be and learn to stand there, despite the slickness and the angle. Because there is no easy ground anywhere near, we could keep human cell cultures that once were a person metabolizing for decades if we really wanted (and if it was done at scale it would make life hell for the actually living).

Re: Do we have a moral obligation to live for as long as possible?

#27

As someone for whom this is a real life practical issue, not some idle philosophizing, even asking the question is repugnant to me. I have incurable cancer and at some point I will decide "enough is enough" and I'd like to be euthanized by a doctor. The doctor will then have to decide if my suffering is sufficiently unbearable and only if he comes to that conclusion is he allowed to do it. He'll have to justify his j…

At least we in NL have access to Euthanasia. Frankly I would like to see Futurama style suicide boots.

OK, the latter may seem extreme, but why do we have all the liberty in the world to create life, including a lot of suffering, but not to end our own?

In America, Euthanasia doesn’t seem like an option, but access to guns solves that option in practice. Terrible, but the hard reality.

In the end, It is about quality of life not quantity of life?. And everything in the medical world should be focused on that. For example, don’t put people on ventilators when there is no possibility of recovery.

Anyway, @Oleander: I wish you the best under the circumstances and that you may get what you wish for.

Re: Do we have a moral obligation to live for as long as possible?

#28

Recently I have started believing that humans are just another part of nature and nothing more. I don’t know whether this idea is part of some greater philosophical tradition. I have not looked into it, but it feels like it should be, i.e. probably somebody else has already thought and written about it. The good part of thinking like this is that you become content with everything, you don’t worry about stuff not wor…

That’s a big part of Buddhism/Hinduism.

Re: Do we have a moral obligation to live for as long as possible?

#29
post #22

As someone for whom this is a real life practical issue, not some idle philosophizing, even asking the question is repugnant to me. I have incurable cancer and at some point I will decide "enough is enough" and I'd like to be euthanized by a doctor. The doctor will then have to decide if my suffering is sufficiently unbearable and only if he comes to that conclusion is he allowed to do it. He'll have to justify his j…

> be euthanized by a doctor. I wonder if suicide is just easier at this point...

It is, but there are complications. My parents are still alive and I'd like them to be present (and they'd like to be present), but when you are present at a suicide you automatically become suspected of 'assisting' and that is not something I want them to have to go through when they are mourning.

Re: Do we have a moral obligation to live for as long as possible?

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How much of our attitude towards end-of-life is "learned" and result of "we have always done it like that"? Probably most of it, but there might be a underlying reason for that information to have passed on for thousands of years, across cultures. Either for practical reasons (like they're a source of the accumulation of information and life experience), or because it's out of fear (let us give the example to younge…

End of life care in the last 5 decades is nothing like the previous thousands of years. I have so far had 2 great grandparents live to 100+, 1 great grandparent to 95+, and 2 grandparents to 95+. All of them did not want medical intervention when their time came. I lived with 2 of the above myself growing up, and one needed dialysis at 93. There was no reason to give them dialysis at that age. It’s brutal for them, t…

Well the quality of life improved greatly in the last 50 years, when I was younger people in their 60's and 70's were way older - both mentally and physically.

>Every one of them did not want medical intervention when their time came.

That's their choice, because they have something to chose from. I'm not saying that we should do everything to keep the age ticker ticking - I'm saying they should have the same rights as everyone else, and they should be free to make their choices.

Else, what would be the age threshold that would strip us from rights? Who would decided that?

Post reply on HN