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Elementary OS 6 beta

blog.elementary.io

31–40 of 70 posts

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#31
post #16
post #6

I'd love to use Elementary OS, but their use of Vala is just such a turn off. That language is dead except for a tiny gnome niche. If they wanted the mac devs for their sleek look and feel they could have switched to swift. And if they wanted to gain easy popularity they could have switched to rust. But vala... there is no developer pool to draw people from, and they're not apple where ObjC might have been an obscure…

I don’t see how the langage in which is developed a software is a reason to use it or not. It’s not like you can’t install your good-old-C++Rust-javascript Firefox browser.

We're not talking about a simple piece of software here but an entire ecosystem which has Vala as it's language of choice.

Using a certain operating system comes with the implicit assumption that I'm also gonna write programs for said operating system. And I'm not gonna learn some obscure version of C#/Java for that, just because the gnome project felt that they had to n.i.h. an entire programming language.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#32
post #8

It looks like there is still no fractional scaling out of the box (always possible with hacks). The elementary team has defended the choice not to introduce it before [1], but it just makes it unusable for me and many other users. KDE Plasma handles fractional scaling well. Gnome does it mostly fine on Wayland. Now you can also run Gnome on X11 with fractional scaling (at least with Pop OS [2]). There's a cost of run…

Agreed on the need for fractional scaling, there is no escape from 13" 1080p and 27" 4K screens. Dell used to sell some laptops and monitors that worked well at 200% zoom, but even they stopped. I've rolled my eyes at the "What is HiDPI" blog post for so long.

However, there has been some movement on this issue! Search for "fractional" in this recent blog post: https://blog.elementary.io/look-and-feel-changes-elementary-...

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#33
post #6

I'd love to use Elementary OS, but their use of Vala is just such a turn off. That language is dead except for a tiny gnome niche. If they wanted the mac devs for their sleek look and feel they could have switched to swift. And if they wanted to gain easy popularity they could have switched to rust. But vala... there is no developer pool to draw people from, and they're not apple where ObjC might have been an obscure…

I'm a iOS developer and don't mind Vala at all. The language directly encodes the GTK object model, and I'd rather pick up a boring C#-ish language on a weekend, than learn GTK and then understand how it is bridged into a language which already has its own conflicting object model.

JavaScript is way more popular than Rust, and I don't feel gjs projects are doing much better than elementary OS.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#34

Elementary OS has truly come so far. I still remember the old days where it started as a Gtk theme and how excited I was back in early 2010s to try out the beta versions of Luna. Unfortunately haven't used it since I bought a MacBook, but I truly appreciate the effort by Elementary team to provide a well thought out aesthetically pleasing linux distribution.

I'm honestly always confused as to what makes Elementary (or Mac for that matter), so much more pleasing than the much maligned GNOME? I'd like to understand because these discussions which often include "I'd use Linux but awful desktop" always leave me feeling like people are tapped in to a dimension I'm not privy to.

I want a UX which is mostly unified (outliers will happen, but should be few), clean and crisp, and easy on the eyes. This is of course subjective, and I've never found an equal on Linux, and Windows has never measured up for me, including Windows 10. Font rendering has always looked oddly antialiased and mostly washed out on Linux. It's never felt as refined as MacOS' UX. But again, that's my personal take.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#35
post #6

I'd love to use Elementary OS, but their use of Vala is just such a turn off. That language is dead except for a tiny gnome niche. If they wanted the mac devs for their sleek look and feel they could have switched to swift. And if they wanted to gain easy popularity they could have switched to rust. But vala... there is no developer pool to draw people from, and they're not apple where ObjC might have been an obscure…

Swift means writing new gi bindings. Decent chunk of work.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#36
post #31
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how the langage in which is developed a software is a reason to use it or not. It’s not like you can’t install your good-old-C++Rust-javascript Firefox browser.

We're not talking about a simple piece of software here but an entire ecosystem which has Vala as it's language of choice. Using a certain operating system comes with the implicit assumption that I'm also gonna write programs for said operating system. And I'm not gonna learn some obscure version of C#/Java for that, just because the gnome project felt that they had to n.i.h. an entire programming language.

> gnome project felt that they had to n.i.h. an entire programming language.

This isn't what happened. When Vala came out (2006), it was at the time the only programming language advertising such high-level concepts as found in C# (like async/await) while guaranteeing you native performance without a VM. At the time it was billed as a better C++ and a faster C#. When the elementary project adopted Vala (2007), Swift and Rust weren't things, and they would remain unstable for at least the next decade.

Today the world has changed, and while I'd argue that Rust is one of the best languages invented, Vala still has some things over it: easier to learn, binds well with C and a million other languages, faster compilation and a simpler toolchain, has built-in type annotations for Gtk and DBus, all while guaranteeing you native performance.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#39
post #8

It looks like there is still no fractional scaling out of the box (always possible with hacks). The elementary team has defended the choice not to introduce it before [1], but it just makes it unusable for me and many other users. KDE Plasma handles fractional scaling well. Gnome does it mostly fine on Wayland. Now you can also run Gnome on X11 with fractional scaling (at least with Pop OS [2]). There's a cost of run…

I think it’s a fair philosophical choice. Fractional scaling is really hard. macOS doesn’t bother, choosing instead to render at an integer scale factor and downsample. Doing something similar on Linux would be hard, for mostly historical reasons.

At first blush, it felt like a copout to have the compositor downsample. After all, wouldn’t that be blurry? Then it occurred to me: it’s always going to be blurry. You can’t draw a “1px border” at 150% without blurry edges. I am fully aware that rendering at a higher resolution then downsampling will produce a different result, but, still, so as long as we are piggybacking off the fact that our layouts are constrained to a pixel grid to make our UIs look nice and sharp, fractional scale will be blurry.

The story only keeps getting worse for fractional scale though. People who have used VSCode on fractional DPI have likely already witnessed a somewhat confounding problem: the terminal is not just blurry, but it is scaled such that it sometimes looks like it is 1px off height or width wise. Because it is. HTML is scalable and DPI independent in part because you are only ever exposed to the virtualized pixels. But on the flip side of that, this means that if you have a canvas somewhere, determining how many actual pixels you need for the buffer is not trivially possible. The grid fitting could be different at different corners of the canvas. This obviously is an example specific to HTML, but similar conundrums should naturally appear any time you have only DPI independent units exposed.

Using floating point can get you into trouble too. I have not personally experienced it but I have seen scaling artifacts in Qt that are apparently spurred on by floating point error. While I don’t know the exact mechanism by which this happens, it’s not too hard to construct a scenario in your head.

All of this adds up to a bleak picture in my opinion. Wayland has a very good implementation of DPI awareness that lets unaware clients fallback by simply doing nothing[1], which is a big step up from X11. In theory, Wayland compositors could try to avoid fractional scaling by picking an integer scale to advertise and downsampling all of the surfaces. But even failing that, at least you could push legacy apps to just see everything at 1x, and get the extra blurry visuals.

Until Wayland is a reasonable successor for all users, though, picking between pushing for Wayland for better fractional scaling over Xorg for better software or hardware support is a tough choice. It may not directly factor into Elementary OS and their decision to not support fractional scaling, but I can only imagine it’s not helping any. There are plenty of problems to solve and improve on in Linux that are a bit more tractable.

And then, after we’ve all finally solved all fractional DPI issues, the world will probably have virtually eliminated displays in consumer devices that look too big at 200% scaling. Of course.

[1]: https://wayland-book.com/surfaces-in-depth/hidpi.html

P.S.: I am fully aware I left out details here about font rendering, and some GNOME-powered Wayland issues like their horrid dbus API for cursor size change notifications. It’s already a long enough post that goes into the weeds too much.

Re: Elementary OS 6 beta

#40
I very much appreciate all of the hard work that goes into striving for a consistent, beautiful UX in ElementaryOS. It feels like there is a driving vision behind all of the design and usability choices.

The move to Inter as a UI font will be a good step forward, as Open Sans has not aged well. Especially as displays are higher and higher DPI, another good step forward would be to completely disable font hinting. It's subjective, but it would seem consistent with the rest of the distro's approach to visual design.

But those are details that some like me deeply appreciate, while others don't see what the fuss is about one way or the other, for better or worse. What really matters is that I can throw ElementaryOS on my wife's or mom's laptop, and they can figure it all out no problem, without all of the terrible anti-user everything that is Windows.

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