New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity • Hacker News Board

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#721

Post by nickalaso » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:39 AM UTC

etripe wrote: post #339

jdkoeck wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with the overall point, there are plenty of sane people on the left, thank God. However, I want to defend the idea that some right wing opinions make a lot of logical sense on their own; their being valid does not require right-wing-specific value systems. Let's take one of the points you're criticizing. > someone who doesn't work and doesn't contribute to society doesn't deserve govt handouts Here's the logi…

> In a fair society That's a central flaw in right-wing ideology. Society has never been fair, and probably never will be. People don't have the same opportunities in life, if nothing else due to the birth lottery. Adopting laissez-faire or "bootstrap" policies doesn't address this problem. As such, it very much is an irrational stance because it is incongruent with reality. In other words, the right focuses on duty…

As a conservative, its not that educated conservatives think society is "fair", in that their aren't people with more or less advantages. Rather, we accept that life is "fair enough", and true equality, in the sense that everyone has the exact same capital/life outcomes is worse for society than it is good.

To be more fair, is better, in the sense that rewarding meritocracy is the goal, but even here there is a fundamental unavoidable unfairness born out of the natural talents and genetic predispositions of individuals making them uniquely advantaged for a given sport, field, career, etc.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#722

Post by CodeGlitch » Sat, May 01, 2021, 8:07 AM UTC

Aperocky wrote: post #545

phroobster wrote: post #96

I am so tired of constantly hearing about politics at my workplace. Politics have already made their way into the tv shows, music, video games, and online forums that I enjoy. At least let me disconnect from that outrage-fuel at work. It also affects team cohesion. I can easily collaborate with just about anyone when I don’t know their political beliefs. As soon as I find out someone holds opposing views on a topic I…

> As soon as I find out someone holds opposing views on a topic I feel strongly about, I can’t help but dread my interactions with them. I'm of the opinion that all views that my colleagues have that are not related to the work at hand does not/should not affect how we work together at all. I've been hearing my colleagues personal political opinion, the spectrum goes to both ends. I personally don't mind at all, I'm…

So would you be ok with a colleague spouting far right Nazi propaganda?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#723

Post by CodeGlitch » Sat, May 01, 2021, 8:20 AM UTC

iso1210 wrote: post #176

sgift wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I predict that the anti-political movement is going to take off and pick up steam in the intellectual circles. Only in anti-intellectual circles could an anti-political movement take off. Anyone with even a shred of intellect understands how important politics is for everyday life and that being anti-political means "I will have to accept what others decide for me without any recourse." Politics may be an uncomfort…

I've just received an email asking me for more for a work permit application to work in the netherlands in a few months. More cost, more expense, less agility. This is a direct result of retired people voting to leave the UK. Politics matters, and votes have consequences. Sadly with many votes, the consequences are disproportionately felt by the ones that lose the vote.

Oh no you have to fill in a form! You must lead a pretty nice life if that's a major concern of yours.

Sorry if I come across as an a-hole, but seeing what's been happening in the world in the last year you'd think people would become a little more resilient.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#724

Post by IkmoIkmo » Sat, May 01, 2021, 10:24 AM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #117

kevingadd wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by "the new segregationists" and "genderisation of everything"? Are people stomping in and replacing gender-neutral workplace restrooms with separate ones for specific genders? Is racial (or otherwise) segregation being put in place at your place of work? Are gender-neutral pronouns like "they" being replaced in company prose with "he" or "she"?

I assume that the previous poster sees “new segregationism” in the following behaviours: * The de-nuancing of race by reverting to “white” vs “black” and sidelining all other “races”. * The redefinition of racism to be exclusively something that “white” people do to “black” people. * The rollback of cultural integration goals by ringfencing certain behaviours as either “black” or “white”, with any cross-pollination b…

I'd consider myself on the left, progressive etc, concerned about issues of discrimination. But hear hear, the four points you make regarding 'new segregationism' are very, very familiar and I'm truly concerned about it.

In effect it's led me away from the political bloc I tend to vote alongside, because the tone of the discourse is polarising and often reductive. I don't want to be affiliated with it, nor do I want to participate in it.

At the same time, I have even less with the centre right parties, many of whom are entirely satisfied with ignoring or belittling genuine issues and their own partial culpability. And I feel the 'new segregationism' from the left is in large part a reaction to their belief in the right's insistence to see white supremacy (not in the nazi sense, but just in the political sense that white's socioeconomic positions should remain elevated) as the default, just look at the Trump era. It's really hard to seek cooperation with the other side anymore, and in large part I can't say they're wrong either.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#725

Post by marrs » Sat, May 01, 2021, 12:21 PM UTC

nickalaso wrote: post #720

marrs wrote: post #718

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still speak my mind openly in the work place and invariably I find that most people are actually delighted when they realise they can have open conversations with me without fear of judgement. The vast majority of people are still entirely reasonable. Of course you never know if you’re going to say the wrong thing to the wrong person, but I don’t go to work to make friends and I certainly don’t go there to be intim…

And, let me guess, your political opinion could be largely quantified as being left of center?

I’d probably describe myself as in the centre, but who knows what that means anymore? I relate somewhat to the parent comment.

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#726

Post by iso1210 » Sat, May 01, 2021, 2:05 PM UTC

CodeGlitch wrote: post #723

iso1210 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've just received an email asking me for more for a work permit application to work in the netherlands in a few months. More cost, more expense, less agility. This is a direct result of retired people voting to leave the UK. Politics matters, and votes have consequences. Sadly with many votes, the consequences are disproportionately felt by the ones that lose the vote.

Oh no you have to fill in a form! You must lead a pretty nice life if that's a major concern of yours. Sorry if I come across as an a-hole, but seeing what's been happening in the world in the last year you'd think people would become a little more resilient.

Imagine if someone in New Jersey had to apply for permission to work in New York

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#727

Post by brippalcharrid » Sat, May 01, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

KaiserPro wrote: post #285

brippalcharrid wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Funny that they don't mention what "certain, commonplace views" people "stay silent" about. That might put a different spin on things. The article actually mentions at least two examples, so I don't think there's as much room for spin with this as you might think. One is Conservative voters, who have been vilified by the hard left since the 1970s, not least because of a sense of betrayal with the erosion of parts o…

> One is Conservative voters, who have been vilified by the hard left since the 1970s, not least because of a sense of betrayal with the erosion of parts of the historic Labour voter base as people from working-class backgrounds moved to white-collar professions and abandoned trade unionism, and this has been particularly apparent in the arts. There is a "Shy Tory" phenomenon that has continued to confound pollsters.…

Just on the subject of trade unions, Labour would cease to exist without them, as their (millions of) members' subscriptions contribute to its funding, and since Corbyn they have had a significantly larger role in the NEC than in the Blair/Brown years. Now that he has left there is all sorts bitter in-fighting, and the prospect that the radical factions could break away (or stay and cause Starmer an unending stream of headaches).

https://labourlist.org/2020/11/labour-left-furious-at-plan-t... https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/momentum-crisis-...

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#728

Post by brippalcharrid » Sat, May 01, 2021, 7:17 PM UTC

wpietri wrote: post #704

brippalcharrid wrote: post #683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Conservative" isn't a view. It's a movement allegiance. So I don't think that qualifies. I feel the same applies more loosely to Brexit. People tended to vote for these things because they believed that the policies of the Conservative Party in the 2019 election or the Leave option in the referendum would be the best expression of their values. They were also rejecting the alternatives, such as a centrally-planned…

Racism didn't "come from, all of a sudden". As history demonstrates, racism is an endemic problem in both places. The question isn't "does it exist" it's "how is it being expressed today". You really seem to be having trouble getting my point about views, so I'll try again. "Party X should be in charge" is not what I'd call a view. It's generally more a tribal affiliation and a placeholder for a basket of actual opin…

I wasn't being obtuse, I wanted to give you the opportunity to explain your claims in your own words, because I didn't want to risk misrepresenting you. I also wanted to withhold judgement about your level of knowledge concerning the subject matter.

> The question isn't "does it exist" it's "how is it being expressed today".

I'm glad that you've come out and said that, because it drives right to the heart of the issue. The problem with the proposal to recast racism into the the mould of an immutable characteristic (I would say redenominating is also a good metaphor) is that we have developed a real moral aversion to transferring individual guilt for events permanently onto groups, and for good reason. On a related note, the problem with claims that we can identify racism through the disparate impact of policies on marginalized groups is that it tends to falsely equate correlation with causation, and in practice it tends to be the result of politically-motivated reasoning.

Overall, I think you've perfectly illustrated the problem that the article was pointing to: "anyone who disagrees with my particular set of claims is bad, and anyone who then claims not to be bad is super-bad".

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#729

Post by someguydave » Sat, May 01, 2021, 10:40 PM UTC

edenhyacinth wrote: post #577

someguydave wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“fixing” that “problem” would involve somehow convincing many women to enter a career field in which they have no interest. How do you propose to force them to change their desires?

That argument assumes women aren't interested in those roles, and that their disinterest is the only or primary thing that causes an imbalance. You have to know that isn't true, which makes this a great example of why people are frustrated about discussing anything 'political' in the workplace.

>You have to know that isn't true

I know it is true, by looking at empirical data. Can you cite data that support your conclusion?

Re: New evidence that British workplaces are losing viewpoint diversity

#730

Post by emerged » Sun, May 02, 2021, 1:01 AM UTC

thrwyoilarticle wrote: post #344

emerged wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I simply unfriended everyone online who virtue signals and/or engages in hostile politics. That includes some family members. If asked, it’s simple enough to explain calmly and honestly.

That sounds a lot like you restricting the viewpoint diversity of your social circle.

I just don’t use social media for “viewpoint diversity” — I don’t use it to discuss politics or morals at all. It isn’t an effective venue. So it’s best IMO to remove the nodes who are using it for those purposes rather than get sucked into the vortex.