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EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

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Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#581

Post by sixstringtheory »

tolmasky wrote: post #562
sixstringtheory wrote: post #536

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People will always take the cheaper option, so might as well make that the only option instead of causing what will surely be claimed in the future as a decision trap for consumers. Hey, maybe 30% already was the cheaper option and they did just that? Allowing sideloading apps or alternative app stores will send the platform straight to hell, by opening up new exploit vectors in an already insanely complex system, an…

For starters, the AppStore is not "good" (from a customer perspective -- it sucks, the search is basically unusable except for exact string matches, and still then it shows you the competitor's ad for almost the whole screen before what you're actually looking for), and I don't even know what "fast" means in this context. Probably not review time, and definitely not "quickness of features" -- it took 5 years just to…

> For starters, the AppStore is not "good"

That is your opinion. There is no merit in this subjective standpoint from a legal perspective unless you're willing to share the metric by which you arrived at this judgement.

> the fast/cheap/good thing (while for starters not being some actual "law"), is meant to apply to engineering and not market dynamics

That's exactly the context in which I mention it. The iPhone, operating system and app store are _huge_ engineering projects.

> I guess we don't need free markets for price signals at all!

I don't know what point you're making with this. We're in a thread literally discussing removing a freedom from Apple.

>> I also wish there was an alternative to the AppStore to catch cases that didn't meet that strict bar

Setting aside the obvious difference, how is this different than outlawing murder, except for one day of the year or in one city? Attention will suddenly be directed towards the less stringent alternative. You're just opening up the gates for a race to the bottom, something we've already had enough of IMO (and FWIW, I agree with you here: "I wish the AppStore was MUCH pickier about the apps it let in").

Remember all the "malware cleaners" that install viruses on Windows machines? Yeah, we're gonna get that on iOS. "But we already have that/similar" Yeah, it's gonna get worse, not better.

Your entire second quote is invalidated as well by your suggestion for alternatives. Nobody that the app store is meant to protect is going to use the curated store because they will be tricked/coerced into using the alternatives where people with less scruples can exercise more control.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#582

Post by sixstringtheory »

colinmhayes wrote: post #572
sixstringtheory wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it is pretty clear in most cases that 30% is well above the value Apple is actually delivering with their App Store. You’re entitled to your opinion. And maybe it is not valuable to you. But I doubt you even know the costs to run the service so my opinion is that you are speaking from a place of ignorance. Part of the value of the service is that you don’t have to go and build it yourself. I’m going to bet…

The app store makes tens of billions of dollars a year. You can't argue it delivers anywhere close to that amount of value.

> You can't argue it delivers anywhere close to that amount of value.

Why not?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#583

Post by pixl97 »

danity wrote: post #530
paulpan wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, the percentage of Apple's cut isn't the key part of this EU case. Certainly doesn't help that it's the current 30% but it being 15% won't change the fundamental issues being argued - whether Apple is abusing its market power and shutting competitors out of or subjecting them to unfair practices in its iOS ecosystem. E.g. unfairly favoring its own Music app. I think it's a fairly straightforward case similar to…

The main difference with Microsoft is that Apple does not have a monopoly in phones like Microsoft had with PCs. Apple phones make up only 13% of the phone market.

Apple has at least 30% market share in EU, you're giving the EMEA number.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#584

Post by ericmay »

Karunamon wrote: post #534
ericmay wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Who would force you to change? you could buy the US iPhone version with the diamond handcuffs. I'm not sure how up to speed you are with the current state of the discussion around this topic, but the gist of it is that if you make changes to the App Store, then Apple's work with respect to privacy, security, etc. go out the window because major apps that want to abuse these things will move to third party app store…

Apple loses the ability to collectively bargain on behalf of users. Without being overly smug here: Good. Apple have been terrible stewards of the platform. Arguably better than Google, but that's a bar so low a deep-bore drilling machine couldn't clear it. The app store is overrun with scams, the approval process is nonobjective and unreliable, and prohibits entire classes of useful software on shaky moralizing grou…

> If Apple doesn't like the EU's rules why not just stop doing business there?

What rules? These are proposals for rules, and also lawsuits. There are arguments that have merit on both sides. But yea sure, if it was me and I were Tim Cook and had unlimited authority and the E.U. made Apple open up to 3rd party App Stores I'd pull the iPhone from Europe. Bad business decision most likely, but principled at least. Instead they're likely going to just do something else about it. There's always work arounds. Closing off APIs, charging gargantuan fees to be listed on the App Store for big players like Spotify, etc.

There are plenty of companies chomping at the bit to get on the App Store top lists and happy to pay a fee to do so.

> don't want Apple to bargain on my behalf. I want apple to fuck off, get out of my way, and stop telling me what I can run on my hardware.

I think Apple platforms aren't for you then. They're highly opinionated and always have been.

> The app store is overrun with scams, the approval process is nonobjective and unreliable, and prohibits entire classes of useful software on shaky moralizing grounds.

So the solution is third party app stores that are even worse?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#585

Post by nolok »

ableal wrote: post #569
chrisandchris wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You‘re not forced to use them? So you have to pay your Spotify subscription by cash or checks. How many people will still subscribe to Spotify? I haven‘t ever seen a check in my live besides in TV. In some sense you are „forced“ to use them. And in some sense it is ok, as long as one party does not has to much power.

> have to pay your Spotify subscription by cash or checks. Not a good example - Spotify takes PayPal, which can be topped up from a bank account transfer, trivially done with the bank app or site. https://support.spotify.com/us/article/payment-methods/ (just learned there's also "pay by mobile" which adds it to your phone bill ...)

Paypal also support the SEPA bank direct debit I mentionned above as a source of funds, meaning you don't even have to initiate a bank transfer they do it for you and it's instant. Bank account -> paypal -> spotify, in one or two clicks and no waiting time.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#586

Post by fastball »

sixstringtheory wrote: post #558
fastball wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, my stance has always been that companies should exist to: 1. deliver value. 2. capture a fraction of that value. I think it is pretty clear in most cases that 30% is well above the value Apple is actually delivering with their App Store. It's not like Apple is building the apps for other people. You still have to build the app entirely on your own, the only thing Apple is doing is letting you distribute your ap…

> I think it is pretty clear in most cases that 30% is well above the value Apple is actually delivering with their App Store. You’re entitled to your opinion. And maybe it is not valuable to you. But I doubt you even know the costs to run the service so my opinion is that you are speaking from a place of ignorance. Part of the value of the service is that you don’t have to go and build it yourself. I’m going to bet…

Haha what are you talking about? Building an app store is... not hard. It's some detail pages and file transfer. That's it. I would definitely not rather die than build one. I actually laughed out loud when I read your comment, because I have in fact already worked on App Stores – I contributed to some of the jailbreak app stores (and ran my own repos) when I was a teenager. So yes, I think I have a pretty good handle on the costs (and they've only come down since then).

For your own edification on costs, just look at AWS prices to see how much it costs to store and transfer a file on S3 (fractions of fractions of pennies) – that type of activity is the main expense. This is not my opinion, it is... how much this kind of thing costs. You seem to think that is unknowable or something to anyone that is not Apple, but that's obviously not the case.

Hell, I'd almost be willing to bet that the existing developer account fees ($99pa for individual, $299pa for biz) could cover server costs for the iOS App Store (with a 0% cut).

The other way we know that it is not actually that expensive to operate is because otherwise Apple would allow other app stores and not be monopolistic about the whole thing. But they know that their model (taking 30% of revenue) would not be competitive in a free market, so they don't allow a free market.

> Malware

Please re-read my comment, especially the part about sandboxing and 3rd-party app stores. The suggestion is not that anyone can put anything in Apple's app store, it is that people should be able to have 3rd party app stores on their phone, which they can enable/install at their own risk. And those other app stores can have their own rules, e.g. if nobody else did I would start one where we charge cost+, as outlined above with S3 costs. E.g. if it costs me $1000 to deliver your apps + updates to your users every month, I charge you cost + 30%, or $1300 (or w/e). Spotify et al would of course prefer to use my app store, because that is much cheaper than having to pay 30/15% of revenue to Apple for every sub.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#587

Post by donmcronald »

AnonHP wrote: post #527
nolok wrote: post #391

Lots of comments around the line of "ok maybe 30% is too much, but we can all agree they offer a valuable service, so what percentage should they take ?" Uhhhh, not a percentage ? Do you imagine AWS billing you a % of your revenue instead of a given price for a given service ? Give a price to be listed in store, to be reviewed, to be downloaded by a user, ... And let company pay what they owe you. Let them pay throug…

> Uhhhh, not a percentage ? Do you imagine AWS billing you a % of your revenue instead of a given price for a given service ? ... > It's ridiculous that it doesn't matter if my app has a 5$ sub or a 50$ sub, I owe them 30% anyway. What they provided is the same in both cases, they should be able to price it out to me. Their current pricing structure is not setup like a fee for services and infrastructure usage, it's…

> I'm curious if you've ever made the same argument for credit cards, debit cards and the like. All of them charge a percentage to the seller too (and many a times it's a fixed fee plus a percentage).

I always thought debit was a fixed fee. I just looked up one of the most common processors in Canada and it says the max fee is $0.035 going as low as $0.02 if you fall into a market segment that skews towards less than $20 per transaction.

I intentionally pay debit for everything and keep a low fee, low interest credit card with no perks.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#588

Post by donmcronald »

lovelyviking wrote: post #522
nolok wrote: post #391

Lots of comments around the line of "ok maybe 30% is too much, but we can all agree they offer a valuable service, so what percentage should they take ?" Uhhhh, not a percentage ? Do you imagine AWS billing you a % of your revenue instead of a given price for a given service ? Give a price to be listed in store, to be reviewed, to be downloaded by a user, ... And let company pay what they owe you. Let them pay throug…

Forget about 30%! What about 100$ each year for the right to properly run your own application on your own iphone/ipad if you want it to work offline longer than a week? Or am I missing something?

> Or am I missing something?

That’s cheap compared to the code signing racket on PC.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#589

Post by nolok »

nicky0 wrote: post #579
nolok wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your point. If you're serving a file from AWS to ten people or to a massive userbase what happens ? Does AWS pricing change once you have a certain amount of traffic ? No, you pay per GB delivered. Apple should offer that kind of pricing, or a price per user (download) if they want. And Apple should also be free to offer the % as an alternative if they wish, "don't want to bother with details ? Jus…

Your flat fee model would really suck for free apps.

Nobody stops Apple from offering an alternative "if your app is 100% free then there are no fees for you at all", beside the 100$/year they already have to pay.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#590

Post by dheera »

nolok wrote: post #391

Lots of comments around the line of "ok maybe 30% is too much, but we can all agree they offer a valuable service, so what percentage should they take ?" Uhhhh, not a percentage ? Do you imagine AWS billing you a % of your revenue instead of a given price for a given service ? Give a price to be listed in store, to be reviewed, to be downloaded by a user, ... And let company pay what they owe you. Let them pay throug…

Likewise with delivery driver tips. Why is it a percentage of the order instead of a flat fee/tip? (Get rid of tips and pay fairly, seriously).

The driver doesn't know what's in the box. They don't need to know what's in the box. At most it should be based on the size or weight of the box but not what's in it.

What's next, tipping hotel bellhops based on the value of items in your luggage? Got a $5000 camera in there? Oh yeah that'll be a 1% or $50 tip. Oh, it's just $100 of clothes? I guess it'll be $1.

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