It's your device, you should be able to repair it • Hacker News Board

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#201

Post by splix » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #178

splix wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot replace a battery on a perfectly working iPad otherwise, and Apple is charging almost a price of a new device to replace it for me, i.e. they are basially forcing me to buy a new one. Wondering, can that be called a planned obsolescence or not?

If we're talking about an unsupported devices, aren't the downsides of third party repairs basically moot? There are any number of above-board companies that you can ship your device to and will do a battery swap for you so long as batteries are available.

Yeah, that's what I did. Found an unofficial repair and replaced the battery for less that $100. Anyway, I don't think it should be so hard to replace a battery. And I still remember times when I was able to replace battery manually at home.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#202

Post by anticristi » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #29

css wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the European definition of "right to repair" entail, then?

The article gives some examples, but I think more broadly the European Right to Repair efforts seem to align the repairability of consumer electronics with what we've come to expect from automobiles.

That industry can also use some "right to repair". I can't type www.peugeot.fr and find schematics, propriety diagnostic codes and repair instructions.

Granted, these are available from 3rd parties for a rather modest fee.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#203

Post by 35fbe7d3d5b9 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

alexvoda wrote: post #165

css wrote: post #2

This article moves the goalposts on what "right to repair" is several times. It generally means that manufacturers should not hide schematics from device users or disallow third party manufacturing of first party parts. However, the author states: > The law doesn't yet cover smartphones and tablets that she says are getting harder to fix. One problem is keeping older devices updated with new software. Now "right to r…

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

> We should demand that any device and any component in any device be second source-able

Devices aren't built around discrete components anymore. That ship has sailed, we waved goodbye, partied on the dock, and took an Uber home. Now we're nursing the hangover. But hey, our phones are now marginally thinner than last year's phones, so that might be worth something.

I don't see how we get back, considering the market just isn't there: it'd rather treat devices as things that we lease for a low cost from a vertically-integrated company.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#204

Post by anticristi » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #24

css wrote: post #2

This article moves the goalposts on what "right to repair" is several times. It generally means that manufacturers should not hide schematics from device users or disallow third party manufacturing of first party parts. However, the author states: > The law doesn't yet cover smartphones and tablets that she says are getting harder to fix. One problem is keeping older devices updated with new software. Now "right to r…

I'd argue that when a security vulnerability is made public, patching the operating system with an update is a form of repair. The device is as broken as my Gen-1 iPad that can no longer browse the web safely. If the manufacturer stops releasing such updates, AND actively prevents the user from developing and applying their own updates, then they are preventing repair.

There is an EU law that mandates selling supplies (e.g. vaccum cleaner bags) a certain number of years after the device is released. I would argue that "security updates" should be treated like "supplies".

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#205

Post by OrwellianChild » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 5:58 PM UTC

CountSessine wrote: post #195

alexvoda wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

This was in a very different era, when manufacturing was difficult and expensive. Having the schematic didn't necessarily get you anywhere. That's no longer the case - now the design is expensive but the manufacturing is cheap.

Can you articulate what that has to do with repairability?

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#206

Post by ImprobableTruth » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

segmondy wrote: post #98

II2II wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps the author kept moving the goalpost since we have lost so much over the years. Take that legacy software. For many technologies the software is not distinguishable from the hardware to the end user, yet faulty software could present a security risk or even pose physical danger. At the same time, vendors are dropping support for software at an accelerated rate while making it impossible to use third party fixe…

Are they also going to force "the right to sell" instead of rent? Nothing is stopping companies from renting instead of selling their products. We already see that with software, no one is trying to sell software these days, it's all subscriptions. It could happen with hardware, in which case you don't have the right to repair since it never belonged to you.

No, because the key difference between renting and buying is that if you rent something, the provider will be forced to repair it for you. The issue is that they try to have it both ways, the strict control of renting something (users can't resell it, repair it, modify it) and the reduced responsibility of selling it.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#207

Post by OrwellianChild » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

35fbe7d3d5b9 wrote: post #203

alexvoda wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

> We should demand that any device and any component in any device be second source-able Devices aren't built around discrete components anymore. That ship has sailed, we waved goodbye, partied on the dock, and took an Uber home. Now we're nursing the hangover. But hey, our phones are now marginally thinner than last year's phones, so that might be worth something. I don't see how we get back, considering the market…

Your approach will always be a valid choice, for those who want it, and companies will be happy to provide that device-as-a-service model.

R2R is just seeking to preserve the practical access to repairability for those who want to service their own devices.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#208

Post by LocalH » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #146

LocalH wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they should have to open iOS signing to all versions a device ever received when it becomes EOL? That also has implications with regards to preservation - if you can never install a given version of the OS again, then how can you trust it is properly preserved?

You can always install the old version, Apple just doesn't think they can optimize new iOS versions to make old phones work well with the new software (and the bloat/feature creep within).

No you can't, and you haven't been able to in some time. Apple devices that need restoring post-EOL are generally restricted to the last-released version. I think you have to go back to the original couple of iPhone models to be able to ignore SHSH and APTicket.

There are ways around this with some models, but it's been a long time since it was even "save SHSH blobs and replay them" easy.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#209

Post by ChrisLomont » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

alexvoda wrote: post #165

css wrote: post #2

This article moves the goalposts on what "right to repair" is several times. It generally means that manufacturers should not hide schematics from device users or disallow third party manufacturing of first party parts. However, the author states: > The law doesn't yet cover smartphones and tablets that she says are getting harder to fix. One problem is keeping older devices updated with new software. Now "right to r…

Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation. As an example, this (1) is how the manual looks for a ~1970-1974 stereo record player I have. You have diagrams of the boards and lists of parts as in individual caps, etc. We should strive to move in that direction, not away from it. Permanently locked bootloaders, DRM for componets, etc. are a move in the oposite direction. To move the over…

>Electronics used to come with full schematics as part of the documentation.

Nearly every electronic device I bought in the 1970s did not have included schematics. TI-55, Pong console, digital watches, Speak'n'Spell, transistor radios, Mattell football and baseball handhelds, Simon... and on and on.

Nearly everything then was also not easily repairable, and certainly not by an average consumer.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#210

Post by foldr » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

What about reliability? Battery aside, the components in a smartphone could all be built to last 10 years. Regulations on component lifetimes might have a much more beneficial effect than repairability requirements. A well engineered smartphone or laptop shouldn’t need repairs within the reasonable expected lifetime of the device. But at the moment, manufacturers aren’t incentivized or required to target 10 year lifetimes.

I see it as a bit like ETOPS. You can fly across the Atlantic on two engines as long as those engines are super reliable. Similarly, you should be allowed to build unrepairable devices if you can show, say, an expected lifetime of 10 years for 99% of units.