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It's your device, you should be able to repair it

bbc.com

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Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#41

Post by viro »

balozi wrote: post #26

A persistent question in my mind is why do customers buy unrepairable products, from smart phones and high-tech tractors. Why is the market failing? Or is it working perfectly?

Because as "tech people" we live in an echo chamber. where we conflate our specialized knowledge as "easy with just a quick google". But in reality my Aunt that can barely troubleshoot her computer(avg person) probably shouldn't be risking an $800 device to save $80 on a repair. So when she buys a phone why would she care about the repairability of a product, she's just going to take it to a professional anyways.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#42

Post by Tyr42 »

viro wrote: post #41
balozi wrote: post #26

A persistent question in my mind is why do customers buy unrepairable products, from smart phones and high-tech tractors. Why is the market failing? Or is it working perfectly?

Because as "tech people" we live in an echo chamber. where we conflate our specialized knowledge as "easy with just a quick google". But in reality my Aunt that can barely troubleshoot her computer(avg person) probably shouldn't be risking an $800 device to save $80 on a repair. So when she buys a phone why would she care about the repairability of a product, she's just going to take it to a professional anyways.

But it can drive down the cost of going to a specialist if your device has parts available, etc.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#43

Post by endisneigh »

pwg wrote: post #40
endisneigh wrote: post #33

I wonder how the right to repair intersects with security. On one extreme, full right to repair is full access to all source code, schematics and documents related to the phone and all of its hardware and software. It would necessarily also give you the ability to arbitrarily flash firmware and install software without limitation. Clearly this can't be good for security. However the other extreme, no access to anythi…

> no access at all, which is clearly secure Not "clearly secure" -- rather it would be 'security by obscurity': https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Security_by_obscurity Quote: Security through obscurity (or security by obscurity) is the reliance in security engineering on design or implementation secrecy as the main method of providing security to a system or component. Security experts have rejected this view as far back…

No, my point was that the most secure device is a device that cannot do anything - I'm familiar with security by obscurity. The point of the example was to give extremes, everything v. nothing.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#44

Post by ben-schaaf »

viktorcode wrote: post #21
tims33 wrote: post #3

Repairability seems like a good goal for sustainability. The challenge on electronics is determining what is a reasonable and useful life for a product. Should an iPhone SE or a knockoff Android last and be repairable for a decade? My worry is the regulation will get this wrong. Moderate rules are probably the best way to start.

I don't think that repairability is better for sustainability in general, if we are speaking about electronics. Making an electronic device more repairable would make it more complex (again, not in every case, but in general). Where before a manufacturer could just solder numerous components to a single board, now will be arrays of sockets each of which is a new point of possible failure. Glue will be replaced by mag…

> Making an electronic device more repairable would make it more complex (again, not in every case, but in general).

Right to repair isn't about forcing manufacturers to make devices more repairable. It's about giving you the right to repair it in the first place. Right now we have paired components that can't even be replaced by genuine parts from a donor device, board components that aren't purchasable by anyone other than the OEM and a complete lack of access to repair documentation from OEMs.

Even the most skilled repair technicians in the world with the best equipment money can buy aren't able to repair your device because they can't debug it without documentation, or they've reverse engineered it but can't buy the parts because they're not for sale, or they've taken the parts from another device but they won't function because the OEM software locked them to the device they came from.

Linus from Linus Tech Tips said it best: "The vast majority of the opposition to right to repair comes from people who either haven't had it explained to them properly or from folks that are on board with right to repair even though they don't realize it yet"

https://youtu.be/nvVafMi0l68?t=91

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#45

Post by endisneigh »

rank0 wrote: post #39
endisneigh wrote: post #33

I wonder how the right to repair intersects with security. On one extreme, full right to repair is full access to all source code, schematics and documents related to the phone and all of its hardware and software. It would necessarily also give you the ability to arbitrarily flash firmware and install software without limitation. Clearly this can't be good for security. However the other extreme, no access to anythi…

> On one extreme, full right to repair is full access to all source code, schematics and documents related to the phone and all of its hardware and software. It would necessarily also give you the ability to arbitrarily flash firmware and install software without limitation. Clearly this can't be good for security. Open source code and device schematics shouldn't be a significant security threat. If device security i…

> Open source code and device schematics shouldn't be a significant security threat.

You don't see how a completely open device could be insecure?

> As for the second point, I should be able to install whatever software I want on my device...as its mine.

This is a valid opinion, but the whole point of contention is whether you can do anything with a device simply because you've purchased it, as opposed to what has been exposed for you to do.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#46

Post by mattmanser »

css wrote: post #14
spamizbad wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are conflating Right to Repair efforts in Europe with those in the US. Naturally, the US laws are more deferential to capital interests and is less consumer-friendly, and simply ask that companies don't ban the sale of components to independent repair shops, firmware lockouts of replacement parts that only the manufacturer can provide, etc.

What does the European definition of "right to repair" entail, then?

They've got a whole study about it, if you've got time to read it (I haven't :):

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2020/6487...

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#47

Post by TideAd »

scrose wrote: post #27
viktorcode wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that repairability is better for sustainability in general, if we are speaking about electronics. Making an electronic device more repairable would make it more complex (again, not in every case, but in general). Where before a manufacturer could just solder numerous components to a single board, now will be arrays of sockets each of which is a new point of possible failure. Glue will be replaced by mag…

> I don't think that repairability is better for sustainability in general Sorry, but what? Being able to repair a device means that you can (and usually will) be able to prevent demand spiking for a brand new device that uses as many or more materials than the last. For starters, imagine a world where vehicles were not repairable. I'd argue that any mass-produced thing benefits from repairability.

I suspect that a minority of people would choose to repair their old phones even if they were more repairable. When your phone dies, it's a good opportunity to buy something new and more fun. I don't know for sure but I don't think this would stop that much consumption.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#48

Post by zepto »

qzw wrote: post #13
css wrote: post #2

This article moves the goalposts on what "right to repair" is several times. It generally means that manufacturers should not hide schematics from device users or disallow third party manufacturing of first party parts. However, the author states: > The law doesn't yet cover smartphones and tablets that she says are getting harder to fix. One problem is keeping older devices updated with new software. Now "right to r…

Isn’t the underlying issue planned obsolescence as a business model? It’s anti-consumer and anti-environment, and maybe we shouldn’t incentivize it as a planet.

The problem is that planned obsolescence is not in fact everyone’s business model.

Apple’s penetration into the US market is not because the iPhone matches Android in terms of sales, it’s because iPhones last longer and get handed down or resold. Apple literally continues to sell years old devices.

That isn’t planned obsolescence.

A really simple step in the right direction would be mandated labeling showing how many years of software updates the device will get and statistical expected lifetime.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#49

Post by judge2020 »

lsllc wrote: post #28
fouric wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not very happy with the quality of the article, overall. It seems useful for a consumer, but obvious, and old-hat, to HN denizens. HN submissions are supposed to be "anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity", but we've seen dozens of right-to-repair articles by now, and this doesn't bring anything substantially new to the table (unlike the top previous submissions https://hn.algolia.com/?q=right+to+re…

I think anything publicizing "right to repair" in mainstream media is a good thing. Agreed that for HN denizens, it's nothing new, but most people are just unaware of this topic. Glad to see the BBC running this.

Maybe, but it’s all over the place and thus might cause confusion for readers who will later see 'right to repair' and think it means that Apple should be forced to send iOS 14 to their iPhone 4S.

Re: It's your device, you should be able to repair it

#50

Post by antattack »

Given opposition to 'right to repair' from corporations, some of it on valid grounds IMO, I would be fine with the following compromise:

If company does not want to provide resources needed for consumer to repair a device- it ought to provide extended warranty to the consumer for free or a small fee.

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