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EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

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Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#341

Post by ericwooley »

ericmay wrote: post #265
ericwooley wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can sideload on Android and yet there are stories all the time about Google removing some app and destroying some ones whole business. It's false to say that multiple avenues for app installation destroys apples leverage over app makers. The tyranny of the default is very real. Facebook is not about to move to the epic store so it can violate your privacy more. Besides, there doesn't need to necessarily be a comp…

> It's false to say that multiple avenues for app installation destroys apples leverage over app makers. Sorry, I just completely disagree. Google's Play Store or w/e it is on Android is the fox in the hen house. Google is one of the offenders that Apple is making disclose data collection practices! I don't think they situation is exactly comparable and it's different enough that the prior precedent may not be applic…

> Google's Play Store or w/e it is on Android is the fox in the hen house. Google is one of the offenders that Apple is making disclose data collection practices! I don't think they situation is exactly comparable and it's different enough that the prior precedent may not be applicable.

You don't think that it's a a good comparison to compare the only other large scale play store which implements the exact behavior I'm talking about?

And googles bad behaviors, and Google does have bad behaviors, is irrelevant to this conversation.

> Yea until that becomes anti-competitive.

How would that be anti competitive?

> If you're sophisticated enough to want to side load apps, you're sophisticated enough to jailbreak your iPhone and get what you want.

Jailbreaking your phone is a huge pita, even if you are technical, and it forces you to always be several versions behind. Not to mention very few companies will be making apps for jailbroken phones. This isn't a realistic alternative. If jailbreaking your phone were allowed by apple, then maybe it would be a reasonable compromise.

> Failures like this aren't indicative of overall policy so I don't really see the point here.

It is very indicative of the over all policy. It's very clear that the app review process is a tool for stifling competition, and that apple is abusing it.

--

The big argument I see is that the app store provides value, so the 30 percent is justified. If that's true, let apps side load, and keep the 30 percent fee, and let people side load.

If it's truly worth the 30 percent, very few apps would switch away from the app store. If it's not worth 30 percent, then we have introduced a mechanism for competition and it's healthier for the whole ecosystem.

> (also hey there fellow Eric :) )

Spelled the same and everything

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#342

Post by trapped »

Why doesn't EU force European automakers with same laws?

Users need to pay extra to even use freely provided Apple CarPlay on BMW.

European Car makers have monopoly in the app ecosystem installed in the cars. Where is alternative App store for BMW, Benz, Audi, VW ?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#343

Post by oliwarner »

adriancooney wrote: post #240
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #46

Since this is an EU case, that should mean it'll actually do something, and won't take a decade and a half to conclude. The penalty won't be the big deal here, it'll be what Apple is prohibited from doing. And it'll be really exciting if the precedent set blows back on the entire 30%-rent-seeking-platform-industry.

Is it fair to call Apple's platform rent-seeking? I think a 30% cut is certainly far too much but I wouldn't call it rent-seeking. The platform itself provides a lot of value and they are entitled to charge something for it.

Is it fair? Yes.

The cost to Apple is largely flat. A free app costs as much to host per user as a paid one, and both arguably cost less than a service client like Spotify. And what does Apple add?

I hope the outcome of this is the dissolution of "free" distribution. It's not free, it's sending and revenue to Apple and Google, and the balance is (more than) paid off by paid apps. Flat fees for everyone, pay a cent or so per user per year. It's up to you to make that work.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#344

Post by simion314 »

bennysomething wrote: post #327
simion314 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Think about the regular people or the artists, not the giant. Say we are a group of musicians and we hate the fact that a big chunk of our money is going to giants including ones from authoritarian countries... so we the musicians think . "let's make our own steaming platform, all the profit goes to the musicians"... what is the problem then? Did you found it ? If mobile devices, consoles and computers are locked the…

No one is making anyone use apple platforms. They are free to choose from others.

Sure . the free market with only 2 players that were caught in the past colluding to do illegal shit https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo... , they would never collude to non compete on the Store tax or offering "transfer" services .

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#345

Post by simion314 »

ericmay wrote: post #323
simion314 wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FUD = fear , uncertainty and doubt. >But long story short, I like things as they are and don't want them to change. If developers don't like that they can kick rocks. I'd rather have no apps and no App Store than to see things change, frankly. Who would force you to change? you could buy the US iPhone version with the diamond handcuffs. >Well, judging by all the requests I get to fix things on computers versus iPhone…

> Who would force you to change? you could buy the US iPhone version with the diamond handcuffs. I'm not sure how up to speed you are with the current state of the discussion around this topic, but the gist of it is that if you make changes to the App Store, then Apple's work with respect to privacy, security, etc. go out the window because major apps that want to abuse these things will move to third party app store…

>If you don't like iPhone and Apple so much why not just not use the products? I don't get this desire to change things that other people are quite happy with.

If Apple does not like EU rules for fair competition, warranties and repaiar Apple should not do bussiness there instead of breaking the laws.

People complaining about bad keyboards, bad video cards, bad batteries and even lawsuits forced Apple to not screw the users and recall bad products or offer free repair. If you like being screwed be my guest and do not use those limited"recall/repair" programs that complainers obtained (remember when Apple ass kissers would accuse people they put food int he keyboard because Apple is perfect)

Btw you have the option to buy an US version of iOS device, with the US version of the store, and never would change. you can;t say that FB will ask US people to buy an EU version of the phone so for sure on that US version Apple can continue protecting you.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#346

Post by microtherion »

sebmellen wrote: post #7

Maybe I’m too cynical, but how will Apple get out of this? What’s the trick they’ll use this time? After all, this is only a “preliminary view.”

It's a "preliminary finding". It can, and presumably will, be appealed.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#347

Post by xondono »

dannyw wrote: post #72
xondono wrote: post #27

Let’s not act like this is some “principles” based discussion. The only reason for the EU getting into this is that spotify is european and Apple isn’t

If Apple was an EU company and Spotify was an US one, I think you'd get the same outcome by the DOJ.

Yes, that was implied in my comment

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#348

Post by simion314 »

eyesee wrote: post #333
simonh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the App Store really an obstacle to apps getting on the iOS platform? Is it artificially raising prices? That's what matters from a consumer interests perspective, are they losing out or are they getting ripped off. If the answer is no, there's no case to answer. The reason for companies to exist and develop and sell products isn't to benefit their competitors.

If anything I think the App Store has helped to drive the purchase price of software to $0. This in turn has driven every software vendor to either a subscription pricing model or a (privacy-invasive) ad model. Open question on if this is net beneficial to consumers or developers, but it could also be considered an economic inevitability when MC = MR = 0.

I think maybe the ads helped this more, and what helped that is probably some ad library the developer can drop in the application.

What kind of free apps are there ?

1 some open source software that is compatible with iOS store license

2 trials or apps with pay to unlock stuff

3 free with ads

So IMO even if you have 3 stores this will not change. But you could get finally GPL software and apps/games that target adults.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#349

Post by 6510 »

I think the legal question should be from the consumer perspective similar to purchased movies: Do I buy an apple device or am I renting it? (note: I'm not trying to answer it) Buying a product suggests to end users a specific set of benefits. If the assumption is far from usual we might have to stop describing the transaction as a purchase. For example: There are no apps for the iphone4 available in the store while they certainly exist. Perhaps its fair to ask: Why is there no support for android apps on iphones?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#350

Post by ericmay »

ericwooley wrote: post #341
ericmay wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's false to say that multiple avenues for app installation destroys apples leverage over app makers. Sorry, I just completely disagree. Google's Play Store or w/e it is on Android is the fox in the hen house. Google is one of the offenders that Apple is making disclose data collection practices! I don't think they situation is exactly comparable and it's different enough that the prior precedent may not be applic…

> Google's Play Store or w/e it is on Android is the fox in the hen house. Google is one of the offenders that Apple is making disclose data collection practices! I don't think they situation is exactly comparable and it's different enough that the prior precedent may not be applicable. You don't think that it's a a good comparison to compare the only other large scale play store which implements the exact behavior I…

> You don't think that it's a a good comparison to compare the only other large scale play store which implements the exact behavior I'm talking about?

Well, I didn't it wasn't good, just that I wasn't sure it's comparable. Google is a software company, and has tons of apps (Youtube, Gmail, Maps, etc.) that are big-time heavy hitters that exist on both their App Store and the Apple one. And given that they own the Play Store and aren't inherently inclined to follow Apple's privacy rules, I think it's hard to draw an exact comparison between the two.

> How would that be anti competitive?

I think people would start to say it discourages users from participating in a free market or something along those lines. But I also don't think the Apple App Store is anti-competitive.

> It is very indicative of the over all policy. It's very clear that the app review process is a tool for stifling competition, and that apple is abusing it

Sorry, I don't have much to say here that's isn't us going back and forth with. I couldn't disagree more and it's unlikely we'll reach any consensus.

> The big argument I see is that the app store provides value, so the 30 percent is justified.

I think that's one argument, but it's not the only one.

> If that's true, let apps side load, and keep the 30 percent fee, and let people side load.

> If it's truly worth the 30 percent, very few apps would switch away from the app store. If it's not worth 30 percent, then we have introduced a mechanism for competition and it's healthier for the whole ecosystem.

You'd have to convince me that, say, tracking users and avoiding Apple's privacy and security rules wouldn't be worth more for app makers. I think they're likely to change, to the detriment of users. So I'll personally oppose any changes here.

TBH I've done a lot of thinking on this topic, I'm pretty passionate about it, and I think I've arrived at a conclusion that is just and fair (in my view) and I'm unlikely to change my opinion in really any way - more likely to double down on it. I want to bring that up just to let you know where I'm coming from here.

Thanks

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