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Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

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101–110 of 433 posts

Re: Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

#101
post #84

I'm going to add that I did a rudimentary an analysis of the S&P 500 because everyone seems to be throwing their money into passive S&P500 low vehicle investments. I looked at every hold period since inception from 1 year holds / returns up to 40 year hold and returns. Timing is crucial for good returns - depending on when you put in and take out your money the returns can be negative (even in cases where you hold up…

> depending on when you put in and take out your money the returns can be negative (even in cases where you hold up to 15 years) Sorry, but unless you're talking about truly black swan circumstances like the Great Depression or the 2008 crash, I don't believe for a second that, over a 15 year timespan, holding the S&P will result in negative returns frequently enough that a typical investor has to concern themselves…

For anyone interested in this topic, https://dqydj.com/sp-500-historical-return-calculator/ is a good place to start.

As a starting point, accept the defaults and hit "Calculate Historical Returns." The minimum return and standard deviation are most relevant.

(Note that it defaults to adjusting for inflation, but that's really the only metric that makes sense when comparing long periods, particularly those including the 1970s and 1980s, so that's probably what you want.)

Re: Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

#102
post #84

I'm going to add that I did a rudimentary an analysis of the S&P 500 because everyone seems to be throwing their money into passive S&P500 low vehicle investments. I looked at every hold period since inception from 1 year holds / returns up to 40 year hold and returns. Timing is crucial for good returns - depending on when you put in and take out your money the returns can be negative (even in cases where you hold up…

> depending on when you put in and take out your money the returns can be negative (even in cases where you hold up to 15 years) Sorry, but unless you're talking about truly black swan circumstances like the Great Depression or the 2008 crash, I don't believe for a second that, over a 15 year timespan, holding the S&P will result in negative returns frequently enough that a typical investor has to concern themselves…

The New York Times published the same sort of analysis in 2011: http://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/...

Be sure to carefully read the description of the graph. Every time I link this, someone assumes that the green & red indicates are the yearly returns, but the entire point of this graph is that it is cumulative. If it is red 20-30 years into the line, that means that money put it at the beginning had a negative cumulative return after 20-30 years, not that the 20th or 30th year was negative. Also observe the graph is inflation adjusted.

Yes, it's true. The idea that you can just stick your money in the stock market and see 7% returns every year is somewhere between "mistaken" and "a lie". It is not a coincidence that this idea has arisen during a time of loose monetary policy and a stock market that is being inflated by it over the course of a couple of decades. In the 1970s and 1980s, for instance, this would have been considered risible, and indeed, people did not generally value stock equities. (See the chart for why they may have felt that way.)

It is not an even remotely accurate model of the stock market to think of it as a 7% return that you can casually compound over time. Anyone who speaks of that model or uses that model doesn't know what they are doing. Your debt certainly compounds over time, but your assets can't be modeled as doing that.

A couple of further observations:

Part of the reason why the stock market can offer 7-10% gains in a year, when the economy does not offer such gains in general, is precisely that "room" is made for those gains by the years in which it loses big.

This is also part of why we have a pension fund crises, because even in the relatively friendly stock market of the past couple of decades, even these so-called professionals would blindly use a high-single-digit return estimate per year, and even in the past few years, that has been an inadequate model. The bailout they're going to need if the stock market actually crashes (popping the "Everything Bubble"?) will be literally unaffordable. (Not paying in sufficiently is also a problem, but that is also itself a consequence of absurdly optimistic models being generally accepted.)

Re: Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

#103
post #92
post #84

I'm going to add that I did a rudimentary an analysis of the S&P 500 because everyone seems to be throwing their money into passive S&P500 low vehicle investments. I looked at every hold period since inception from 1 year holds / returns up to 40 year hold and returns. Timing is crucial for good returns - depending on when you put in and take out your money the returns can be negative (even in cases where you hold up…

General consensus is to invest using dollar cost averaging so you don't rely on timing. Invest the same amount of money each pay cycle. If stock is expensive, you'll be able to afford less stock, if stock is cheap, you'll afford more stock.

It's not exact that straight-forward. From Vanguard:

> Our research indicates that it's prudent to invest a lump sum immediately.

Article: https://investor.vanguard.com/investing/online-trading/inves...

PDF: https://static.twentyoverten.com/5980d16bbfb1c93238ad9c24/rJ...

Re: Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

#104
The stock market is an odd duck.

What to make of it now? There's both colors of swans at work in terms of the plague, excessive money printing, per Peter Turchin (cliodynamics) a peaking cycle in civic unrest, a potential loss of reserve currency status, big changes in tech that still haven't been digested, low cost of transactions. Lotsa opportunities for froth.

I'm still uncomfortable with it as a store of value. Not many people even owned stocks in the past, which makes historical comparisons a little problematic. It took things like the government heavily encouraging parking money there (401k, IRA, tax law changes, corporate tax law) and greater ease of transaction to put us where we are. You could argue that the entire market is a mania.

edit: Just to indulge my logorrhea for a minute, I wonder to what extent we are seeing an organic change in stock markets, a form of evolution really, that takes advantage of human nature. In the last 40 years or so, it was bound to gather up all the accoutrements of video poker. Marketing and blinkenlights, random payoffs, a house percentage getting scraped off, the fiction of player skill. The payoff is greater than 100% due to it riding the back of GDP growth (and the growth of large companies at the expense of the small) but the science of the casino is built deeply in the human psyche. The stock market has to act the way it does simply to remain attractive to all the primates.

Re: Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you avoided the worst 10 days, your earnings double. If you avoided 20 worst days, your earning doubled again. What is the point of such trivia? That most of the profit or loss happens during the days of high volatility?

This "trivia" points out the flaw in the "long term average" argument: The stock market is occasionally so volatile that 40 days out of 34,675 have an inordinate effect on returns over those 34,675 days. Over 95 years of trading, 0.12% of days account for far, far, far, far more than 0.12% of market impacts.

Yeah so what are you going to do about it?

Re: Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

#106
post #90
post #84

I'm going to add that I did a rudimentary an analysis of the S&P 500 because everyone seems to be throwing their money into passive S&P500 low vehicle investments. I looked at every hold period since inception from 1 year holds / returns up to 40 year hold and returns. Timing is crucial for good returns - depending on when you put in and take out your money the returns can be negative (even in cases where you hold up…

the problem is just that you don't know when it's a good or bad timing, that's why you shouldn't bother and just put your money in. If your money is long enough in the market it doesn't matter anymore that much as it averages out. It also sounds that you think 15yrs is a long time, but for ETF you should consider more like 20yrs and up

I understand the theory behind it and the uncertainty of timing is an impossible problem to solve.

My point is that holding S&P 500 generally gives you a positive return but if you buy during good years/months and end up having to sell in bad years/months you actually can have a negative return up to a about 15 years (if you really eff the timing up) or get marginal returns (1-2% per year).

Even over 40 years - you probably wouldn't be supper happy with a 100% return - yes things go positive but your returns are much lower if you time the market poorly (obvious statement).

For example buying in 98/99/00 your returns are much worse then buying before or after. Likewise selling in those years gave much higher returns.

Stating the obvious - but worth thinking about. Sell when the market is rich, buy when its soft (like blackjack).

Re: Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

#107
post #44
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your explanation for the explosion in asset prices over the last year, if not inflation? Do you think the assets have become fundamentally more valuable?

Tell-tales are all over the place. From explosion in asset prices world wide and cross-industry to micro-signals, such as goods coming in smaller packaging (for the same price) or slightly increasing grocery prices[0]. In my bubble, its mostly tinfoil-hat-wearing crypto-enthusiasts pointing at examples of how toiletpaper comes in smaller packages-for-the-same-price, so my view is skewed. But its safe to consider all…

Slow inflation is the norm. Because if you have whole generations working and aren't experiencing growth things are deeply wrong. Not just "corporate lobbyists or those connected to officals have disproportionate influence" wrong but "masses of people working cannot improve their skills, processes, or products at all".

That is a very hard state to get even as a paranoid police state or literal aristocracy which views a minority of small farmer able to sustain their own plot as an existential threat. It is deeply unnatural in the "low probability" sense like your cat walking back and forth across a keyboard or swatting at it and writing passages of famous authors low.

Re: Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

#108
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put your money in real estate. Our political system is unable/unwilling to address housing needs. Home owners vote for whatever it takes to increase prices. Renters and young people looking to buy their first homes don't have as much political clout. The reality of the situation is sad but the results are clear!

Real estate is one of the worst asset classes right now. If anything is due for a crash it’s real estate prices. And the amount of protection that tenants have been getting during the pandemic doesn’t inspire confidence in being a landlord. On top of that, people seem to get so leveraged in real estate, it’s a recipe for bankruptcy. I never hear about people investing in stocks going bankrupt unless they do something…

There were some interesting books written about some bankruptcies associated with stocks.

Which doesn't subtract from you main point, yes, real estate is much riskier than it might look.

For example-- what happens when municipalities realized their pension funds are broke, and they decide to raise property tax to cover the shortfall?

Re: Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

#109
post #2

I mean, just look at last year, when the S&P 500 index plunged over 30%, then proceeded to nearly double from then until now, in the midst of a global pandemic that froze big chunks of the world economy. Stock market returns make no sense.

It starts to when you ask yourself: Where else are people meant to store money? Since interest rates and bond rates were at historical lows. So you have people who are looking at 10% YOY returns on one hand and 0.2%/2% on the other and making the rational decision. Does this make stocks overinflated? Yes. Is it going to suddenly pop? Unlikely, since the conditions that caused it won't suddenly change (e.g. certain bo…

> Is it going to suddenly pop? Unlikely,

I disagree.

https://www.currentmarketvaluation.com/models/buffett-indica...

Unless you mean will it pop tomorrow, then yes that is unlikely. But the chances it pops “soon” seem quite likely. And it will be very ugly. I don’t know if we have ever seen a spring coiled this tight from money printing.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1SL

Re: Stock Market Returns Are Anything but Average

#110

The stock market is an odd duck. What to make of it now? There's both colors of swans at work in terms of the plague, excessive money printing, per Peter Turchin (cliodynamics) a peaking cycle in civic unrest, a potential loss of reserve currency status, big changes in tech that still haven't been digested, low cost of transactions. Lotsa opportunities for froth. I'm still uncomfortable with it as a store of value. N…

> You could argue that the entire market is a mania.

Objectively, the big publicly listed companies are growing and have stellar financials. I can think of no better place for someone to invest, other than maybe diversifying into real estate with high demand, if they already have a significant amount invested in public equity markets.

Public equity market prices are also backed by the federal government, at least on a 5+ year (maybe even 3+ year) timeframe per events over the last few decades.

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