EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint • Hacker News Board

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#261

Post by tgv » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

Mindwipe wrote: post #55

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #46

Since this is an EU case, that should mean it'll actually do something, and won't take a decade and a half to conclude. The penalty won't be the big deal here, it'll be what Apple is prohibited from doing. And it'll be really exciting if the precedent set blows back on the entire 30%-rent-seeking-platform-industry.

I'm hopeful Apple might be forced to divest the App Store into a separate company entirely tbh.

That's my nightmare scenario. I fear it'll be the end of the mac as we know it. What upside do you see?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#262

Post by simion314 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

f6v wrote: post #222

simion314 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should not be allowed to build a platform and then compete unfair with apps for that platform.

Why build a platform then?

Don't build one, build good products that users want and not forced to use. But this is from the users point of view. From a capitalistic point of view I agree you need to screw the users and environment as much as legally possible.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#263

Post by diffeomorphism » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

slver wrote: post #232

realusername wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No one (successfully) sued Apple for anti-competitive practices on iPod Because they never had the market share and power in the music market that they have now on the mobile market that's why. You kind of answered why they are getting sued now yourself.

You're in effect saying "no, EU didn't sue iPhone because it added an App Store to iPhone, it sued iPhone because it was successful". Is that better? Become successful, get sued? Android has 87% market share, iOS has 13%. That's not even a monopoly. Of course we can define arbitrary categories like "Apple has monopoly on the iOS market". Which makes the concept of monopoly absolutely nonsensical, because then everyon…

All these laws are not about "monopolies", that is just the wording people commenting use. So, yes the "concept of monopoly" is wrong here, which is why nobody is actually doing that and you are attacking a strawman.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#264

Post by FridayoLeary » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

So, the EU will make a big fuss, lump Apple with a huge fine, which in the grand scheme of things amounts to a slap on the wrist, and then what? Apple will be forced to lower their fees, but i'm sure they'll come up with another creative way to fleece off app store vendors.

Sigh. I wonder if they're not already selling information to Facebook after releasing ios 14.5...

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#265

Post by ericmay » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:18 PM UTC

ericwooley wrote: post #254

ericmay wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the topic has been beat to death a million times, the danger is that adding additional app stores will result in decreases in the exact thing the OP likes the App Store for. All of the hard work fighting for privacy, security, etc., goes out the window. Facebook will put their app on a 3rd party store and now we’re back to them and others abusing privacy and tracking users and not sharing what and how they’re trac…

You can sideload on Android and yet there are stories all the time about Google removing some app and destroying some ones whole business. It's false to say that multiple avenues for app installation destroys apples leverage over app makers. The tyranny of the default is very real. Facebook is not about to move to the epic store so it can violate your privacy more. Besides, there doesn't need to necessarily be a comp…

> It's false to say that multiple avenues for app installation destroys apples leverage over app makers.

Sorry, I just completely disagree. Google's Play Store or w/e it is on Android is the fox in the hen house. Google is one of the offenders that Apple is making disclose data collection practices! I don't think they situation is exactly comparable and it's different enough that the prior precedent may not be applicable.

> Apple can put up a scary message before you install a non app store app, and epic can side load their app.

Yea until that becomes anti-competitive. Besides, that makes the user experience bad. Why do any of this at all? If you're sophisticated enough to want to side load apps, you're sophisticated enough to jailbreak your iPhone and get what you want.

I can already see it. You see some app in the App Store - you download it thinking it's an app but it's just a message: "Want to download our app? Go to our website!". Then I get all these pop-up warnings, download some malware on accident, whatever. IMO (and I'll vote with my dollars at least) it's just a dumb experiment to run. I see 0 benefit in doing any of this. 0.

> It's been shown repeatedly that they let scams through all the time

Failures like this aren't indicative of overall policy so I don't really see the point here.

(also hey there fellow Eric :) )

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#266

Post by FridayoLeary » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

bennysomething wrote: post #80

zibzab wrote: post #2

Unpopular opinion: This was a no brainer. Apple wanted 30% (or was it less for subscriptions?) on any business that used apps, no matter if they used apple infrastructure or not. Just think about it: one company is in practice entitled to 30% of what any other business makes (in any industry)!! Also, I think apple brought this to themselves by picking a fight with Spotify (on Watch support).

How is apple entitled to 30 percent of what any other business makes? Apple developed a platform and says to developers "pay is 30 percent to use it" sounds fair to me. Huge streaming service comes along "I want to use you platform but not pay the fee". How is that remotely fair? No one is making Spotify use it. What right has any one or any company got to demand special treatment. Many other app developers are fine…

>Also "abusing market position" what does that mean. It's purposely broad, it can mean anything.

There's a reason for that. Not everything can be defined clearly. If every law gets defined down to a t, we will be in a very sorry state indeed. (off topic, but that seems to be happening more and more, with every lawsuit that goes to court and gets somewhat arbitrarily -and permanantly- defined)

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#267

Post by simion314 » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #159

simion314 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if you personally won't benefit from it you should not be against someone else benefiting right? If you want to buy Cyberpunk 2077 you have the option of at least 3 stores, I did not see any Steam user getting damaged by the fact the game is on other stores too.

As the topic has been beat to death a million times, the danger is that adding additional app stores will result in decreases in the exact thing the OP likes the App Store for. All of the hard work fighting for privacy, security, etc., goes out the window. Facebook will put their app on a 3rd party store and now we’re back to them and others abusing privacy and tracking users and not sharing what and how they’re trac…

This is FUD.

iOS will have the sandbox, if some shitty app ask "Do you want me to open the microphone now?" the user can still say NO, if the app asks "Please give me access to location!" the user can still say No, or Apple could even be clever and offer the user the ability to give fake location data,

From your point of view iOS users are so stupid that they shold not be allowed to use a OSX device or a browser(not sure if you know but browsers ahve access to camera, , location if the user allows it so go unsintall your browser (I think you don't have the freedom to remove it , sorry for you)).

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#268

Post by oblio » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

wil421 wrote: post #182

oblio wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No?

Maybe this: >Apple asserted that it is entitled to a verdict in its favor since the evidence does not "tend to exclude" the possibility that Apple acted in a manner consistent with its lawful business interests.

The original comment had just the text, without the link.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#269

Post by gambiting » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

breakfastduck wrote: post #215

gambiting wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's irrelevant. EU has already ruled previously that if you, as a company, reach more than 10% of EU's population(about 30M people) then no, you can no longer get away with just saying "my platform, my rules". The easiest way to think about it is - John wants to sell Mark a product that works on Mark's iphone. Currently, John cannot do that without a) getting explicit permission from Apple b) giving Apple a substa…

Apple holds a gigantic market in their grasp and by controlling it so tightly and by forcing everyone to use their billing, they give the customers what they want . If iOS becomes the android wild west it'll kill the entire selling point of the iPhone. To me, the iPhone is the equivalent of buying a games console instead of a gaming PC. Less flexibility, less to worry about. 'Its just a phone'.

>>If iOS becomes the android wild west it'll kill the entire selling point of the iPhone.

What always baffles me, truly leaves me flabbergasted and confused, is.....who is going to force you to use any other app store other than the Apple Store??

I'm on Android, and yes, there are other stores that exist - you can download the Amazon Fire store or many others, or even sideload apps......or......shocking......you can continue using the Play Store??? How is the mere existence of 3rd party stores going to affect your experience with the Apple Store?

>>To me, the iPhone is the equivalent of buying a games console instead of a gaming PC. Less flexibility, less to worry about.

Again, if you could load a game on your PS5 not from PSN, can you explain to me exactly how it would reduce your ability to only buy and download games available on the PSN?

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#270

Post by kypro » Fri, Apr 30, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

laurent92 wrote: post #234

mrep wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With that accounting methodology, between the 30% apple store cut and the 70% music publishers cut, Apple music is left with no revenue whatsoever to fund their service, therefore running it at a 100% loss and thus price dumping which is also illegal.

But this is an excellent accounting methodology then: Each sub-business should run as a separate business. It picks my interest: Companies internally run as communist economies, all resources are merged and shared, employees are not individually associated with a revenue because the group is worth more than its sum, on the outer, liberal economy. At what size / on which criteria should a group inside a company be con…

Whenever a company of significant size branches into another market where it has some unfair advantage thanks to it's dominance other industry it should come under scrutiny.

The reason products like Alexa and the Fire tablet have been so successful for Amazon is basically because they have been able to promote them for free on the worlds largest marketplace and then sell them at a loss offset by the profits generate from other segments of their business like ecommerce and AWS. I've been so underwhelmed by every Amazon product I've ever brought I'm 100% convinced their success in hardware has been almost entirely due to their cannibalistic business practises than their ability to make solid hardware that people want to buy.

This means in basically any market Amazon enters they don't need to make the best product, they just need to undercut and promote their products enough to kill off the competition. Google and Apple can also run this strategy very effectively with Google Search promoting Google products and Apple's hardware/appstore ecosystem promoting then locking users into their own hardware and software.