Seems like an odd time to do this, given the strict new law ( http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/23/dutch-parliament-passes-s... ) on cookies that the Dutch Parliament just passed.
That cookie law, for those just scanning the comments, is EU in origin. All member-states have to implement. Nothing's really being done about it, enforcement-wise, from what I can tell. The UK has just recently given all businesses an extra year to get their stuff together. The law, by the way, is only restrictive to analytics cookies, basically, if that analytics service is from a third-party. You have to get expre…
Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
31–40 of 91 posts
Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
#32Less expensive? not by much is my bet: Amsterdam is the most expensive city in Holland and one of the more expensive ones in Europe (Scandinavian countries + London may be worse is my estimate). It's also impossible to find housing. As far as immigration is concerned, one can fall under the category "kennis-migranten" (loosely translated as knowledge-workers) pretty easily, as long as the company sponsoring you is wi…
Impossible to find housing is not my experience. I moved here one year ago from Italy. Got an apartment from my first company for 2 months, then rented a shared apartment with other two people. After a few months I got a mortgage with no money down and moved in my own house not far away from the center, and the government reimburses me part of that every month. If we speak about renting prices, I can agree they are h…
Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
#33I've always felt Amsterdam would make a good startup hub. It has the right sort of atmosphere. Civilized without being pretentious.
That feels like an honor coming from you, thanks. Have you been in Amsterdam often?
Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
#34That being said, there is some technical talent in the Netherlands and distances are small enough that you can attract people from towns like Eindhoven to work at a startup in Amsterdam. Most people also speak English, allowing easier cooperation with foreign co-workers and customers.
Downsides of the Netherlands are bad conditions for immigrants, high taxes (expect to pay over 50% on income tax alone), high cost of labour due to all kinds of government enforced perks like daycare and a lot of free time, business-unfriendly labour law, bureaucracy and the lack of an entrepreneurial culture. Technical and scientific education is also declining in both popularity and quality, despite the half hearted efforts of our government to position the country as a "knowledge economy". Getting a visum is relatively easy for immigrants from the EU and US (there is a special treaty with the US to enable easier immigration), but immigrants may be forced by the government to participate in expensive language and integration courses due to a streak of xenophobic politics in the last ~10 years.
Amsterdam has a reputation as a liberal city and a "gay capital". There seems to be some correlation between a vibrant gay culture and tech hubs, if you look at Tel Aviv and San Francisco. I hope that Amsterdam can turn the current decline around in that respect, because the city isn't as gay-friendly as it used to be anymore (according to the homosexual community; I can't report from first hand experience here). Homosexual couples are apparently harassed and beaten by groups of second and third generation immigrants from muslim countries (whom are quite prevalent here). A homosexual couple (or visually distinguishable Jew for that matter) will get harassed, bullied out of immigrant neighborhoods and in some cases physically threatened or worse. This development is accompanied with a rather ugly, xenophobic and isolationist political movement rooted in the lower middle classes that feel left behind in the current economy. Their main political hero, Geert Wilders, gained popularity by constantly picking on muslim immigrants in the rudest possible manner and is currently heading the second biggest party in Dutch parliament. The other parties have silently adopted a similar tough stance on non-Western immigrants to retain or win back voters, but usually without the ugly rhetoric. The tolerant atmosphere that brought intellectuals from Descartes, to John Adams to Einstein to our country seems to be in peril.
I think Amsterdam has potential for startups. Particularly in the creative and mobile apps industry. That being said, the current entrepreneurial atmosphere in the Netherlands isn't great and I doubt that we will be able to compete with places like Silicon Valley. I think it won't attract many foreign founders before some of the cultural problems are solved (I'm pessimistic and distrust any government initiatives in that respect because politicians won't be able to create a startup culture) and the town becomes a local tech hub in its own right (competing with towns like Eindhoven). But this is a cool initiative. I'm sure it will do at least some good and will be valuable to the participants. I'm not in Amsterdam, but as a Dutch hacker I might drop by one of the meetings at some point.
Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
According those links, San Francisco or San Jose aren't even in the top 50 most expensive. Every time I read one of these "the Valley is moving to X" articles, I'm reminded of the last 15 years of "the Valley is moving to X" articles that haven't come true. Tech is a huge industry, and growth allows for jobs everywhere. I don't know why all of these articles have to be phrased as if jobs need to leave the Valley to m…
Mike just wrote a blog post about how much expensive Amsterdam is: http://mur.mu.rs/?p=179 About the "the Valley is moving to X" I can tell you our objective is not to move the Valley here. What we want to really accomplish is to build the some sort of evolution of it. We want to build a great community and make Amsterdam the technology and innovation center in Europe. The outcome looks bright and we are very optimis…
And yet the subject of the OP is: "Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam"
Of course, if it was a less clickworthy title like "Amsterdam trying to increase number of tech jobs", we wouldn't have seen it upvoted.
Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
#36I've always felt Amsterdam would make a good startup hub. It has the right sort of atmosphere. Civilized without being pretentious.
The startup scene _is_ growing into a hub actually, although some elements (e.g. capital) are hard, others easier (hiring, advice). That feels like an honor coming from you, thanks. Have you been in Amsterdam often?
Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
#37> Now that Sofa has been acquired by Facebook, the company’s team (ironically enough) will be moving to Palo Alto. But Lee said he doesn’t expect that to affect on Appsterdam’s future... If the founders don't believe in their own product enough to use it, it's going to fail.
Sofa contributed, but they are not "the founders" and this is not a "product" at all. Moreover they are moving because they have been acquired, so it has nothing to do with Appsterdam (apart of telling that this city is a fertile ground for good companies). More on the subject on this post: http://mur.mu.rs/?p=156
Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
#38Amsterdam is somewhat of a creative hub here in the Netherlands, with a lot of designers, photographers, advertising people and other creative types. There are also a number of good, but relatively expensive, data centers where you can host your servers. It has never really been a technical hub, though. Most technically focussed businesses (including startups) in the Netherlands seem to be in places like Eindhoven (w…
No. If you earn 50K you pay about 16K in income taxes; if you earn 100K you pay about 43K.
(For tax percentages and discounts see http://financieel.infonu.nl/belasting/60892-inkomstenbelasti... . I ignored all special cases.)
Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
#39Seems like an odd time to do this, given the strict new law ( http://www.engadget.com/2011/06/23/dutch-parliament-passes-s... ) on cookies that the Dutch Parliament just passed.
Legally speaking, the larger problem is probably immigration law. The anti-foreigner sentiment here is driving a set of ever more annoying laws and processes. To digress a bit: For the non-EU crowd, the easiest way into the country is probably with a kennismigrant (knowledge worker) visa. This entitles you to a faster, easier process but there's a few problems: You must work for a company with (or willing to apply fo…
However, more important than ease of visa processing is that as a Kennismigrant, you can usually get the "30% rule" tax break -- first 30% of your income is tax-free, AND the first euro after the 30% is taxed at the lowest tax bracket (i.e. the other 70% is adjusted down in tax bracket). You don't even need to be non-EU to get the 30% rule -- e.g. if you're a Danish or German or Spaniard, and get recruited to the Netherlands specifically for "knowledge work," you can qualify for this tax break too. It's good for 10 years. If you're married, try to see if your spouse can also get a job with this tax break BEFORE you accept your job offer and move to NL.
Make sure you don't go to university or grad school in NL tho, because you have to have been recruited to NL specifically as a highly skilled worker to qualify for this tax break. If you were already in NL for school, you tend to get disqualified for this 30% rule.
Re: Say hello to Appsterdam: developers aim to move the Valley to Amsterdam
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
Impossible to find housing is not my experience. I moved here one year ago from Italy. Got an apartment from my first company for 2 months, then rented a shared apartment with other two people. After a few months I got a mortgage with no money down and moved in my own house not far away from the center, and the government reimburses me part of that every month. If we speak about renting prices, I can agree they are h…
The rent is very high in Amsterdam, and it is really difficult to find good housing in Amsterdam in a decent neighborhood. The rent might be lower than the valley, but don't forget that Dutch salaries can easily be half of what you can get in the valley too.