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I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

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Re: I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

#81

Post by uptown »

jamesgagan wrote: post #75
maeon3 wrote: post #73

Bitcoins is going to be killed one way or another, the Federal Reserve is looting our USD, and will not allow any technology to hinder that ability to dilute the USD. The question is not IF bitcoin will fail, but how this takedown will be accomplished. Anyone who sets up a "Bitcoin bank" is entering the dragons lair. You may disappear in the night, as people who oppose the IRS in legal battles, you get your assets se…

I think your claim that people who oppose the IRS "may disappear in the night" could use some evidence to back it up.

Maybe Wesley Snipes? First as Blade ... then by the IRS for tax evasion.

Re: I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

#82

Post by flatulent1 »

Astrohacker wrote: post #69
michaelochurch wrote: post #64

Bitcoin isn't a scam because it's "imaginary" (i.e. fiat) but because of how the currency is distributed: a proof-of-work system that is skewed heavily in favor of early adopters. There are a lot of good ideas in Bitcoin, but the truth is that its raison d'etre is to enrich early adopters-- the definition of a pyramid scheme. (It's not a Ponzi scheme; that has a technical definition and Bitcoin doesn't qualify.)

It's not a scam. You have to distribute the coins somehow. Proof-of-work is a method to ensure no cheating. You can be sure the early miners did in fact perform computational effort to get their coins.

But what of value was actually produced by that "computational effort"? What is the current total worth of the results for all of that computational effort? If effort produces nothing of lasting value, is it a valid basis for value?

Machine rights and slavery are being ignored as people blindly treat the work done by machine slaves as if it was done by "owners". Some publicly act as if slavery of machines or other humans should not be the basis for a currency, yet we still have slaves. The slavery still around isn't just about mining the materials for the capacitors in your tech toys. And it wasn't just a part of past colonies.

http://www.thenational.ae/news/worldwide/middle-east/men-sho...

How many hours of CPU work, or how many bitcoins does a slave cost? If some do decide or admit that slavery is acceptable, or just a fact of life, would the value of a slave be a more stable value for the basis of a currency? (measured in prime adult slave-years perhaps). Perhaps one should have to be a slave for a time to obtain bitcoins. However if one is born into debt, it might take some time to have a positive balance.

Does being born into a society where there is public debt associated with a national currency amount to defacto slavery?

Re: I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

#83

Post by epscylonb »

michaelochurch wrote: post #64

Bitcoin isn't a scam because it's "imaginary" (i.e. fiat) but because of how the currency is distributed: a proof-of-work system that is skewed heavily in favor of early adopters. There are a lot of good ideas in Bitcoin, but the truth is that its raison d'etre is to enrich early adopters-- the definition of a pyramid scheme. (It's not a Ponzi scheme; that has a technical definition and Bitcoin doesn't qualify.)

I would be much more impressed if people who raised this point also suggested a fairer way of distributing the coins.

It is difficult to tell if they think the fundamental concept of bitcoin is bad or if they just have sour grapes because they aren't an early adopter.

But while we are at it, why shouldn't early adopters profit?, they took a risk early on.

And actually if you ask me I think the minting system is pretty good, mining costs electricity, while many miners are surely hoarding and speculating they all have to pay their electricity bill on a fairly regular basis.

This ensures there is always someone somewhere selling bitcoins and increases the liquidity of the market.

Re: I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

#84

Post by gvsteve »

michaelochurch wrote: post #64

Bitcoin isn't a scam because it's "imaginary" (i.e. fiat) but because of how the currency is distributed: a proof-of-work system that is skewed heavily in favor of early adopters. There are a lot of good ideas in Bitcoin, but the truth is that its raison d'etre is to enrich early adopters-- the definition of a pyramid scheme. (It's not a Ponzi scheme; that has a technical definition and Bitcoin doesn't qualify.)

Then the stock of any company ever made is a scam because it is run with the intention to profit shareholders, of which early adopters will profit the most.

Re: I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

#85

Post by gvsteve »

csomar wrote: post #46

I really wander what if a country legalizes bitcoins. A small/poor country with less than 1 million inhabitants. Bitcoin supporters will found a great base where to make transactions legally and build bitcoin related start-ups without fear. All transactions take place in that country banks and then forward to the bank of choice of the company/person/start-up. Think of that country as a legal bridge to using/trading b…

Everything is legal until it is made illegal. Bartering for goods and services is not illegal, at least in the US, and Bitcoin falls under that legal realm.

There is no law hindering any company's ability to accept Bitcoin as payment besides the requirement to pay taxes on the fair market value of the Bitcoins.

Re: I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

#86

Post by ohashi »

gvsteve wrote: post #84
michaelochurch wrote: post #64

Bitcoin isn't a scam because it's "imaginary" (i.e. fiat) but because of how the currency is distributed: a proof-of-work system that is skewed heavily in favor of early adopters. There are a lot of good ideas in Bitcoin, but the truth is that its raison d'etre is to enrich early adopters-- the definition of a pyramid scheme. (It's not a Ponzi scheme; that has a technical definition and Bitcoin doesn't qualify.)

Then the stock of any company ever made is a scam because it is run with the intention to profit shareholders, of which early adopters will profit the most.

Well if their business was to sell more company stock, then yes. But generally the company actually produces something of value, not just itself.

Re: I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

#87

Post by ohashi »

netcan wrote: post #65
michaelochurch wrote: post #64

Bitcoin isn't a scam because it's "imaginary" (i.e. fiat) but because of how the currency is distributed: a proof-of-work system that is skewed heavily in favor of early adopters. There are a lot of good ideas in Bitcoin, but the truth is that its raison d'etre is to enrich early adopters-- the definition of a pyramid scheme. (It's not a Ponzi scheme; that has a technical definition and Bitcoin doesn't qualify.)

Interestingly, that may be an advantage of the system. It encourages early adoption and encourages early adopters to nurture the system. Maybe it's unfair, I don't know. But, I don't see any perverse incentives.

If you want to know how this may be perverse, it mirrors a pump and dump. Get in really cheap, hype it and dump for lots of profit on something without any basis for its value.

Re: I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

#88

Post by gvsteve »

guelo wrote: post #18

If bitcoin was a currency the meal would have been denominated in bitcoins not dollars. Bitcoin is an asset like gold or a stock certificate, not a currency.

If you're trading Bitcoins for a meal, I don't think it really matters if it fits the dictionary definition of a "currency."

Re: I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

#89

Post by DavidSJ »

flatulent1 wrote: post #82
Astrohacker wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a scam. You have to distribute the coins somehow. Proof-of-work is a method to ensure no cheating. You can be sure the early miners did in fact perform computational effort to get their coins.

But what of value was actually produced by that "computational effort"? What is the current total worth of the results for all of that computational effort? If effort produces nothing of lasting value, is it a valid basis for value? Machine rights and slavery are being ignored as people blindly treat the work done by machine slaves as if it was done by "owners". Some publicly act as if slavery of machines or other hu…

But what of value was actually produced by that "computational effort"? What is the current total worth of the results for all of that computational effort? If effort produces nothing of lasting value, is it a valid basis for value?

The computation power secures the network from double-spending. Do security guards also produce nothing of lasting value?

Re: I Spent A Coin (And I Liked It) — How I Bought Lunch in Manhattan with Bitcoins

#90

Post by gvsteve »

gwern wrote: post #67
ubernostrum wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exchanges run by former magic the gathering admins don't count. Not sure what's meant by that dig, but worth pointing out that a lot of former (and some current) Magic pros do quite well in financial work. In fact, an eerie number of them seem to graduate from Magic, to poker, to finance.

Seems like an obvious selection bias, IMO - much like chess or RTSs or first person shooters. The kind of geeky person who plays Magic and has the brains to do very well even against fellow geeks - is it such a surprise that a good fraction of them might do well when they turn their efforts to poker or finance?

He's referring to how the most popular Bitcoin exchange site, mtgox.com was formerly a trading site for Magic The Gathering cards, "Magic The Gathering Online eXchange"

This site was hacked a few days ago causing much chaos in the Bitcoin community.

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